Ok, this was where I first had to comment in favour of the Pocket Watch, which all the replies that followed related to.
With comparing his def-trinket of choice with Scarab of Displacement(since it has more +def, and usually something that replaces Adamantine Figurine) I started a string of replies.

It was just to showcase the above poster with a trinket with more +def on it, and that I personally don't agree it's nowhere as good as Pocket Watch as an "oh shit"-button. Then I moved on with the idea that the 2% dodge on it, easily surpasses the Adamantine/Scarab as an avoidance trinket because the parry you gain...(borrowing your explanation bolded)

I never said parry is bad as avoidance-stat, and I don't think I wrote anywhere something that might have given you the notion I didn't understand parry-mechanics. But it is as you say expensive to get, and not something you see often.

I personally don't aim to get everything that has +parry since I don't count the stat itself as good as pure dodge, just personal opinion. In my full avoidance stats I rather have parry on the lower end and dodge on the higher, just because stacking parry is going to be more expensive, and you can't find that many items with +parry, to give the same % avoidance as dodge does for a cheaper price. Therefore I personally consider dodge a better stat to aim for than the parry through a +def-trinket =)

I have enough trying to put all other stats in good order. And in a choice of getting a 2% pure dodge trinket(Moroes), and a def-trinket(Adamantine > Scarab) to gain 2% towards full avoidance (1/3 dodge, 1/3 miss, 1/3 parry) I'd go with getting 2% pure dodge 99% of the time since I don't count that small part parry I gain from the def-rating anything game-breaking/something I "need".
Not saying it's bad though, the idea came from the outburst that Moroe's is such a crappy trinket and that a +def-trinket will take the crown any day of the week.

I am serious. You linked a profile, so I looked it up.
Offset warrior gear - Things like Wrynn Dynasty leggings, Jade skull BP, etc. Gear with +sta/+agi/+str is typically warrior gear. Some pieces can take you so far, but if you rely on it, you're going to be hurting for aggro, or you are going to be "harder to keep up than the other tanks".

First of all, don't be so patronising. I've been tanking for far longer than you. I was offering advice, not that you have to take it. You could ignore it, but don't just call it cute, like I'm an idiot.

Stacking avoidance means you take overall less damage. On some occasions, this is not important. On most this is. Surviving burst damage, while important, is not paramount. Again, you can supplement spell damage to make up from the loss of holy shield. There are situations where you don't have the benefit of the mob beating on you, but still need to generate threat.

35 block value is not worthless. 24 int is not worthless. 27 spell damage is more than 1/2 of a weapon enchant. 17 stamina difference is a fair difference to be honest. But you have geared your entire set away from spell damage, which is going to cause you problems in the long run.

Likewise, if you were serious, you would already have grinded out the rep weapon. If you realistically think that 200 spell damage is going to be enough, you're already not taking your role seriously, or else you have yet to be in a circumstance where you have significant DPS.

You are not filling a warrior's role as a tank. You fill a tank role. This is a fundamental difference. You're not taking a warrior's job and trying to do it the best you can. You're taking a tank role, and filling it. We have DPS warriors tank crystalforge devastators in tempest keep because of spell reflect. That can be considered a warrior's role. I tank supremus every week. That is not considered filling a warrior's role. That is just me tanking.

If you continue to gear the way you are, you're going to run out of threat as soon as your DPS learns to DPS. Even if you're OTing. I'm obviously not saying that your gear is not strong enough to do what you're already doing. But I was just offering general advice.

In short, all I was saying is: Take blessing of kings. If you are noticing the lack of 1 point out of reckoning from DPS, it's really just a symptom of the fact that you're gearing the wrong way.

You say you can do without kings. But then you complain about losing 200 health while gaining a greater than 10% increase to your spell damage. Kings is going to be like 1500 health generally, but apparantly it's worth going without.

Paladin tanks aren't inherently inferior to warriors. We are tanks, like warriors, like druids. We have different strengths, and different weaknesses, but by no means are we inherently inferior. And I think that's what you need to get over. You're trying to make your paladin into a warrior-lite. And if you continue to do that, that's what you'll be.


I have tanked nearly every encounter in the game now. And the few that I haven't, has been because I can fill another role better. And those that I haven't (rage winterchill, archimonde, naj'entus, morogrim, leotheras) I know that I could do fine, with the exception of archimonde. I have only once felt that I was not well equipped for the job. And that was while doing Supremus. And that was because "I took a lot more healing than the other tanks". And I looked at what was the difference between me and them. And the difference was, I stacked effective health, and they balanced their set with avoidance. I went back to a proper mix of health and avoidance, and all of a sudden I was easy to keep up again.

I'm not entirely certain he's not trolling at this point.

To clarify, which of these two shields do you find better:
[Crest of the Sha'tar]
[Shield of Impenetrable Darkness]

And Prince is a bit of an odd case in numerous respects. How about Nightbane, Gruul, or Maggy? I tanked progression kills for all of these bosses in considerably worse gear than is available at the Kara level, before the 2.3 changes when stamina was much more relatively important. Prince has an undenyiable randomness about him, though even for him there's a certain point where block value is strictly better than stamina, or higher avoidance avoids the Sunder (which is what results in the big hits). Not to mention AC as related to block as related to stamina is flat out not a direct comparison that you can make, because AC decreases the value of the max possible hit (increasing relative hitpoint pool in a %-scale) and block value is removed from the direct final attack.

The avoidance vs mitigation issue is not one we're ignorant of, and in fact in most cases I tend to come down upon the statics (AC, hp, blockval) when compared to the chances (dodge, parry, to-be-missed). But dismissing all other stats in favor of pure HP specifically is certainly no way to gear a tank, and setting up point evaluations at a static value across multiple gear levels is...not a good idea. Even setting up fluxuating gear levels it is fairly unwise because it's a situation of absolutes in a situation where relative value changes fight to fight.

Speaking of, 'credibility' comes across because you are stating absolutes (stamina is god!) without a whole lot of backing (Prince hits hard), and being condescending in your replies. Your first post came across as flame-bait or an insult to people who are in different situations than you, without the slightest possible thought that perhaps it is your perception? Most people in this thread started in Kara, and most of us (I think) have various friends and guildmembers who are still at the kara level (I'm certain I know of 4 people I speak with on a regular basis, in guilds working on Gruul, who disagree with me about weightings and gearing and specs). To pop along with 'Well you're wrong this is the the valuation that's correct' is a bit...off putting.

Hell, if you think that everyone replying to you and potentially disagreeing with you agrees with each -other-, you're anything but right. If you think we're dismissing what you say out of hand because of the tone you present it in, you're likewise incorrect (and in fact, because I'm certain of my Illidan spec and illidan raid, I have dropped Kings from my weekly respec for that, though I'd never run without it in a standard spec). But you're bleeding our desire to listen to what you have to say because it's pretty obvious you haven't read, you know, the entire thread, and assume we're just ignoring you while, in fact, ignoring our counterarguements in favor of what you'd prefer. In short, it feels like you think you're posting on the wow forums.

Oh, and for the record, I detest the T4 gloves. But not for the reasons you listed. I give no value to Int, I give a -ton- of a value to block value because I've seen far too many pieces of math, discussion, and the like. I don't like the +damage on T4 gloves becuase I think Maiden stomps them into the ground due to pure stamina, even at the cost of the higher AC on Felsteel. The set bonus is nontrivial, but frankly since I value T4 shoulders over T5 I'd go for helm/helm. I also tend to like the Badge helm because it lets me equip stamina trinkets and drop subpar (key word) avoidance trinkets- for example, I'd wear Moroes' watch on Prince but pure stamina for something like Curator (well, frankly, I'd go +damage instead of stamina for Curator, popping AW and Icon to ensure that my dps could burn like he has a 3 minute enrage). I'd probably wear pure stamina for Nightbane though.

In addition, one last note. The reason you put stamina in everything (and I do agree, EVERYTHING) is because when taken in the context of 3 sockets, it is -massively- overbudget. The ilvl budget system basically means that for 8 int, 12 stamina is equivilant. When taken in 24, -30- stamina (or thereabouts) is equivilant. Then let's add that onto the base stats of the item and presto there's one of the big reasons that the socketing system is pretty far out of whack. Of course you stack stamina, it's the biggest bang for the buck in a pretty dramatic sense. And in fact, stamina is always one of your primary stats, but don't assume just because of gems that that is the 'best' stat in all situations.

On a completely different and much lighter note, I've recently discovered that I can solo tank all of Karazhan except for one small portion -- the skeletal ushers before opera. Blessing of Sacrifice tricks work fine for Moroes (have a fury warrior cancel his salv as you move onto DPS'ing Moroes and keep a blessing of sacrifice on him at all times; he'll take one hit after the gouge and then you wake up) and I've got the gear to single tank Attumen, Romulo and Juliet, and all of the hard hitting two-mob pulls. It's just those three pulls I haven't yet found a solution to; the best I can do is have our fury warrior treat it like Moroes -- cancel his salv and swap to sword and board when I get ice tombed and hope the healers can heal through it. Is there any better suggestion?