This is semi-random and sorry for the little derail, but wouldn't it be hilarious if a glyph could be created via Inscription to give Righteous Defense a "grab" ability? Though, I can imagine the complaints about this, the thought of it is still pretty funny.
I for one will not care about Intellect. Sure its a nice buffer when you front load at the start, but its hardly needed once combat has started. If Blizzard wants us using Warrior and Deathknight tanking gear, then you can rest assured we will be balanced around not needing it.
It's not an issue in raids. It's slightly more of an issue in 5-Mans. Especially 5-Mans that you outgear. You won't be getting enough back from SA to matter.
It's not an issue in raids. It's slightly more of an issue in 5-Mans. Especially 5-Mans that you outgear. You won't be getting enough back from SA to matter.
Then switch out tanking gear for something else. Wear some Holy gear with spellpower/int/mp5 on it instead of tanking gear. More spellpower, bigger mana pool, more mana regen, less avoidance so you get more back from SA.
This is basically what we have to do now for content we outgear, so there's really no change here.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
It's not an issue in raids. It's slightly more of an issue in 5-Mans. Especially 5-Mans that you outgear. You won't be getting enough back from SA to matter.
Wear gear with more strength and less avoidance. Avoid consecrate spam and use the mana cheap HotR to maintain multiple mobs. Use some CC after the first consecrate is over. Keep JoW up etc etc....
I really doubt it will be a huge deal. We will just have to work at it a little differently.
EDIT- Or what Cathela stated... there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I think the answer is intended (to the how do we get mana with no int question) is JoW.
If we are stacking spellpower and str (in whatever degrees are needed to give us max threat) then JoW will be pumping back a large amount of mana SA or no SA, based on the current numbers I have seen, with guarded by the light and 1400 Ap and 500 spell damage, you can easily gain mana spaming consecrate.
Time will tell as the numbers are balanced, but as things stand right now I think we would be fine with zero int on our gear.
Also, if we're doing decent white damage (~200dps instead of like 80) then SoB will be useful for tanking easy/farm content since it'll likely be more threat than SoR and the self-damage will make some healing room for SA.
EDIT: And yes, remember that in WotLK you'll be able to have JoW up on pretty much anything you're hitting for any length of time.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
0.55 is spell damage versus a specific family of mobs. The actual spell damage value is 0.86. Which makes strength fairly superior as it'd provide 1.1 TPS for a single point versus the approximately 0.6 TPS of an equal amount of spell damage.
Oops, yes. I copied the wrong row from the table. Could've sworn I double-checked that.
Have any tests been run yet on the mechanics of melee hit vs. spell hit for new and/or existing abilities? Given that the devs generally want us moving toward more "melee-oriented" stats, the odds of seeing any spellhit gear will probably drop considerably. Add to that the fact that Precision is going away and we might have a minor dilemma on our hands.
It's probably not a big deal for sustained threat generation since we appear to be getting a substantial boost overall. I'm just concerned with snap-aggro moves that might be still tied to spellhit (i.e. Exorcism).
Have any tests been run yet on the mechanics of melee hit vs. spell hit for new and/or existing abilities? Given that the devs generally want us moving toward more "melee-oriented" stats, the odds of seeing any spellhit gear will probably drop considerably. Add to that the fact that Precision is going away and we might have a minor dilemma on our hands.
It's probably not a big deal for sustained threat generation since we appear to be getting a substantial boost overall. I'm just concerned with snap-aggro moves that might be still tied to spellhit (i.e. Exorcism).
I thought melee and spell hit rating were merged, so we should be looking to cap ourselves in both schools via the same stat? Unless I missed something and Blizzard reverted the changes.
Ah, that would definitely help. I guess I missed that change. Even still, I find it odd that they're removing Precision, as it's pretty much a key talent right now.
If warriors actually get the "rage from dodge/parry" talent, I want one too. Something like 2/4% of base mana, say.
Blessing of Sanctuary changed to a percentage-based damage reduction, rather than a flat amount.
A 3-second Silence added to Avenger's Shield.
A spell interrupt would also be fantastic, possibly bound to the afore-mentioned single-target threat ability. Something like Pummel, but with a decent spelldamage coefficient, maybe. Although perhaps a spell interrupt with a cooldown short enough to be part of a standard threat rotation as well is overpowered.
I've always wondered why Hammer of Justice never had an interrupt mechanism attached to it. As it stands, it's moderately useful in certain encounters, but against mobs which can't be stunned (bosses and certain elites, for instance), it's just plain useless. Throwing in a 'kick' functionality would help, especially for encounters where a group is running interrupt-light. (Think certain setups for Araan, for instance.) The beauty? HoJ is already on a cooldown, and it would increase interest in taking Imp'd HoJ in the prot tree from zero to...something. (Or hell, they could simply throw that functionality into the talent.)
Then switch out tanking gear for something else. Wear some Holy gear with spellpower/int/mp5 on it instead of tanking gear. More spellpower, bigger mana pool, more mana regen, less avoidance so you get more back from SA.
This is basically what we have to do now for content we outgear, so there's really no change here.
Correct. But what other class has to do this but prot paladins? Warriors? Druids? Anybody?
Correct. But what other class has to do this but prot paladins? Warriors? Druids? Anybody?
It's an issue for all tanks that I'm aware of. Druids are somewhat less troubled by it, but Prot Warriors? They'd rather sit down and drink in between every pull like we have to do if not managing mana properly than be stuck with their low incoming rage.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Correct. But what other class has to do this but prot paladins? Warriors? Druids? Anybody?
Yes, warriors have to do this. I gradually put on pieces of my pvp set throughout the instance until the healer(s) cry uncle - if ever (pvp gear has lots of stamina and dps stats, but no dodge/parry/block, so I don't have avoidance streaks). In extreme cases, I start dual-wielding. It's a deeply unfortunate setup that we fortunately wont have to tolerate in WOTLK thanks to our new talents. Getting +2 rage every time we dodge or parry will be pure love.
That's part of the reason I like the original Guarded by the Light talent...it made use of Dodge and Parry, and finally made them worthwhile to get. I'm not arguing that the new version is bad, but it does remove the use that balancing avoidance would give, especially in outgeared instances.
Yes, warriors have to do this. I gradually put on pieces of my pvp set throughout the instance until the healer(s) cry uncle - if ever (pvp gear has lots of stamina and dps stats, but no dodge/parry/block, so I don't have avoidance streaks). In extreme cases, I start dual-wielding. It's a deeply unfortunate setup that we fortunately wont have to tolerate in WOTLK thanks to our new talents. Getting +2 rage every time we dodge or parry will be pure love.
Hence why I'm hoping for something similar for protection paladins. On dodge/parry/block a paladin gains X amount of mana. Something that actually rewards a tank for having better gear.
Has anyone done tests on the actual mechanics of the aggro of casting a Seal? Someone had mentioned to me that recasting SoR had a decent chunk of aggro associated with it, and I tested it out on felmyst's skeleton waves this week.
It wasn't super scientific, but no one died or even got low to them on any of the waves of adds, which is a bit cleaner than usual. I also had many, many times where a skeleton that was 90 yards away chasing a priest would suddenly turn and beeline to me, though I was also getting some substantial power gain aggro from the healing I was taking.
Either way, the initial impression was that there is definitely something worth exploring there.
Hence why I'm hoping for something similar for protection paladins. On dodge/parry/block a paladin gains X amount of mana. Something that actually rewards a tank for having better gear.
Exactly. It's something that I still don't understand - why on earth do tanks have to downrank gear to hit a sweet spot that the instance is designed for, just to be effective? Well, that and why do tanks accept this? I was hoping for some kind of Imp'd SA talent that would do just that. Guarded by the Light (in its original iteration) was a good start, but making it proc based could lead to problems even still.
Exactly. It's something that I still don't understand - why on earth do tanks have to downrank gear to hit a sweet spot that the instance is designed for, just to be effective? Well, that and why do tanks accept this? I was hoping for some kind of Imp'd SA talent that would do just that. Guarded by the Light (in its original iteration) was a good start, but making it proc based could lead to problems even still.
Consider the old GBTL:
1. If you only had a few mobs on you, you might not proc the mana cost reduction. You'd want to pull more mobs to proc it more often, but that's what we already do if we're mana starved (and the healer can hack it) anyway.
2. If you had a lot of mobs on you, then you're proccing the reduction rather regularly, but the increased damage intake (and subsequent mana gains) from the multiple mobs means you're probably not mana starved in the first place.
I consider the change to a flat mana reduction a buff - we're essentially getting free downranks on our Consecrates.
I admit I liked the idea of a "mana restore proc on dodge/parry" as a Paladin version of Stalwart Protector, but I also couldn't shake off how a Paladin might be able to "go infinite" if it did. Consider the amount of parries/dodges you'd get from the Demon Hunter Supplicant pulls in SMV.
If I understand what you're saying properly you're down ranking gear to get hit more to regen mana on trash, bosses, etc...
I believe I have a solution to your problem.
As you progress through content, you as well as everyone else will receive gear upgrades. Healers will heal for more, tanks will take less damage and have bigger health pools, DPS will do greater Damage. Hopefully we all agree here.
As I've received better gear I've found the same problem many have! Especially on farm content. BT, Hjal, those Heroics, KZ! You now what I'm talking about.
Solution is easy.
Make sure you're 490 def, 102.4 avoidance, lotsa stam and the rest put into spell power.
The main pieces I swap out are my Cloak, Neck, Shield, Rings. But swap out what you can. THat just happens to work best for me. Also as we go forward, especially in BT, I tank more mobs. I group pull almost anything I can and have CC other tanks maybe 1 or 2 pull a mob off me. Thusly since I'm tanking 2-4-6 mobs more than I use too I'm taking alot more damage. In those times I do boost my defense back up :-)
sor (and other various buffs) do cause a small amount of aggro, modified by salv and RF. But you get even more aggro from casting an expensive buff, and then having the mana it cost restored via SA. A good place for this is illidan for example, i recast RF whenever i can, and because im being hit so hard/so often i have unlimited mana income. Recasting RF once every 10s or so is netting me about 150 tps for using up a gcd basically.
@gunn:
most of the outgearing discussion is concerning beta/wotlk, where they didnt seem to address it properly... a mana gained per dodge/parry would be fantastic. Also don't forget when you are leveling you need more def to prevent crits, though some of it comes naturally while being hit.... also crushings are being pretty much removed in wotlk, so we won't have to deal with the 102 number anymore :/
That's actually not feasible for the Felmyst skeletons scenario. The bottleneck for SA is the amount of damage I'm taking, not the mana I spend (this is actually the case for almost every fight for me, even most bosses). Additionally, it's healers I have to keep aggro off of rather than DPS (particularly on freshly spawned skeletons), so I'm hesitant to view chain sitting down or something to lose more health as a viable tactic.
The question in particular is how MUCH aggro does SoR generate, as a TPS figure - and if it's split amongst targets at all, what the range on it is, etc. Well, those are my questions at least.
question in particular is how MUCH aggro does SoR generate, as a TPS figure - and if it's split amongst targets at all, what the range on it is, etc. Well, those are my questions at least.
From the Theorycrafting Think Tank post (Linked in the very first post of this thread):
Originally Posted by Chicken
One final thing of note is that casting a Seal in and of itself also generates some threat. Casting a max rank Seal of Righteousness is approximately 120 threat, other seals most likely produce a comparable amount. (With thanks to Shalcker for testing)
Not sure on range, or threat split. But I would say it's unlikely to be the reason why the skellies are finding you.
Not sure on range, or threat split. But I would say it's unlikely to be the reason why the skellies are finding you.
And those would be the more important facts, which is why that one sentence buried deep in a non indexed section of the post didn't help me terribly much. It also does not mention if that 120 figure is pre or post righteous fury - or if righteous fury even affects it.
Assuming it does not split threat, and that number is pre righteous fury, we are looking at 120 * 1.9 = 228 threat per cast. VS the 25 or so skeletons in the felmyst fight, it'd take a salved healer about 16000 healing (without threat reduction talents) to exceed that. That's obviously not a number they're likely to reach in a 1.5 second window, which makes just spam casting the seal a very effective tool vs large numbers of mobs.
These are both assumptions of course, thus my question.
And those would be the more important facts, which is why that one sentence buried deep in a non indexed section of the post didn't help me terribly much. It also does not mention if that 120 figure is pre or post righteous fury - or if righteous fury even affects it.
Assuming it does not split threat, and that number is pre righteous fury, we are looking at 120 * 1.9 = 228 threat per cast. VS the 25 or so skeletons in the felmyst fight, it'd take a salved healer about 16000 healing (without threat reduction talents) to exceed that. That's obviously not a number they're likely to reach in a 1.5 second window, which makes just spam casting the seal a very effective tool vs large numbers of mobs.
These are both assumptions of course, thus my question.
Right, but given the information tested in the threads so far (easily gotten via a simple search), this is the most that has been tested. You can even read Shalcker's post to get an idea for how to test it (and it's not that difficult). If you want to test the range, have a friend aggro a mob, throw them a small enough heal to not pull aggro but to put yourself in combat, then spam the seal till you pull aggro.
Also, why would you assume that the threat is not split? Were that the case, simply casting a seal would immediately snap aggro to you in any number of situations, as it'd be close in threat to consecrate( better even if at a distance like you're suggesting). In my personal experience, that has not been the case.
In your case, I would believe that you're getting threat from reactive healing spells( PoM, earthshield, etc) primarily, and very little from casting a seal. Feel free to do some testing to prove that wrong, but given that a) no one's seemed to find this before (as you no doubt saw in your searches), b) it's counter-intuitive (a single seal cast being as powerful as consecrate at range?!) and c) goes counter to mine (and possibly others?) experiences on multiple fights (murlocs on TW, any Hyjal wave, trash before Supremus/Bloodboil/Gorefiend, Felmyst), I think the responsibility lies with you to prove it, rather than with everyone else to disprove it.
07/25/08, 1:21 PM
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