Anedris

EA isn't a DPS loss. The minor loss to the rogue applying it is more than made up for by the increased ArP that the rest of the raid can take advantage of. (Sorry to jump on that, I just keep seeing it said when it is in fact a DPS gain to have one rogue using imp. EA assuming you have a decent number of melee and hunters in your raid.)

We currently usually use a warrior/druid and the warrior behaves more or less like a protadin would - holding aggro initially. The druid is careful to stay below the warrior. (In other words, if you're being overtaken by your OT, that's something easily fixed by having the OT hold back. It does take some coordination of course.)

 

• Theras

For our one night so far of attempts I've been the offtank on Sacrolash, with a Warrior leading off. It's worked pretty well, to be honest with you. Once we got the kinks worked out of our positioning, tank survival and threat haven't appeared to be major concerns; what's wiping us is when tank healers are eventually killed by cross-healing problems. But we were well on track for a 4 minute Sacrolash kill without any DPS flasks or Heroism, so tonight I'm looking forward to really stomping her face.

I've been wearing my normal boss tanking kit, with a [Commendation of Kael'thas] as my trinket. I'm using entirely threat consumables, which consist of a [Flask of Blinding Light], [Crunchy Serpent], and [Superior Wizard Oil].

 

Prinsesa

EDIT: Corrected by Snowy. Sunwell Radiance is still up for Twins, but not for M'uru.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Theras

She sure seems to crush the bejesus out of me even in avoidance gear, so I somehow doubt that.

 

• Snowy

Sunwell Radiance is still in play for Twins. M'uru is where it no longer applies.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

◊ Oggie

/script local _,_,_,_,tht = UnitDetailedThreatSituation("target","player"); tht = tht / 100; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(tht)
This does NOT give threat info. It returns 0 in all cases. Is it possible you miswrote it?

 

• Chicken

I'm not sure actually, I just read a quick report that this (should) report threat information.

I'll try and see if I can get it working myself if I have the time, as I have a beta key myself now.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Maccam

The talent "Judgement of the Just" from the WotLK beta, "Your Judgement spells also reduce the melee attack speed of the target by 10%". Is this likely to affect bosses? How important do people think this is if so?

 

Pixen

I suppose it would depend whether or not it stacked with thunderclap. A 20% attack speed reduction is a pretty significant reduction in incoming melee damage.

 

• Chicken

It works exactly like all other such debuffs currently do. Only the highest one takes effect, and unless the boss is specifically set to be immune to it, it'll work. On bosses the effect does not work on, Thunderclap wouldn't work either.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Pixen

In which case, I would it's great if you're a paladin MT who runs without warriors who have imp TC. If you're an OT/AE tank or whatever else have you, you probably won't need the points.

 

Qalor

I disagree. JotJ should be taken by any prot paladin. The warrior version requires talents to get to 20%, requires rage, and can't be used in zerker stance. The feral version doesn't give 20%. The paladin version works automatically, with no extra mana or cooldown usage from the paladin beyond what he's already doing.

 

Gevlin

Isn't Deathfrost a reasonable substitute for Thunderclap, granted the mob/boss is not immune?

 

Liar

Deathfrost is only a 15% slow and it has to proc to be up. I really don't see how that would beat out a proper TC or Judgement of the Just. The only reason you might have a tanking weapon with Deathfrost is because you lacked the alternatives. In WotLK you can apply your own TC (and you don't even have to change your threat rotation for it) which frees up an enchant slot on your weapon.

Unexpected TankPoints error Clearly someone doesn't understand how EH works. That, or upgrading from T8 to T9 is optional in beating Arthas. Clearly.

 

◊ Cathela

Deathfrost is worthwhile right now on your mitigation (i.e., warrior-style) weapon but only because there's nothing better.

The big advantage of JotJ instead of relying on Tclap is that it's yours, and you'll always have it. Sometimes that's a big advantage, especially when you're tanking something off by yourself.

Maulgar is a really good example of this. Right now, a warrior is a far better tank for Maulgar than a paladin solely because of Tclap. The Maulgar tank has to sit and tank by himself for awhile as the raid dps's down the adds. A warrior doing this can provide his own Tclap. A paladin can't, which means either you take more damage, or you have a dps warrior babysit you to keep Tclap up, and you lose his dps on the adds.

That said, the WotLK rank of Curse of Weakness also slows attack speed by 20%, so that would also be a viable option in this case.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Nobbynob Littlun

After playing in the beta a while, I've concluded that Seal of Blood/Martyr, even after you've switched from spellpower to strength, generally isn't a good idea! The reason being that, Hammer of the Righteous procs your seal on all three targets. The self-inflicted damage of Seal of Blood quickly adds up when you have more than one target, which you usually do in WotLK, and if you've got Reckoning of course. In fact, when I tested it, I was doing almost as much damage to myself as the mobs were, and the mobs were doing quite a bit! However... this HotR mechanic also means that it is fairly trivial to keep Seal of Vengeance/Corruption stacked up on four or five targets.

 

• Chicken

In addition to that I've also found I typically get higher damage from Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Vengeance/Corruption myself when compared to Seal of Blood/Martyr.

I personally swap seals depending on what I'm fighting; for normal mobs I typically find I get best results with Seal of Righteousness as they actually die fast enough for me to make Vengeance/Corruption stacking too slowly. For elites or other mobs which have very high health for some reason I tend to use Vengeance/Corruption instead. I haven't really had the time to try out tanking properly yet so I'm not sure where I'd get better results there, but I'd guess it varies between how strong the mobs are there too.

I'll add that Hammer of the Righteous has made me swap to using melee weapons, though I rather quickly replaced my old [The Unbreakable Will] with the amazing [Mrgl Blade] as I get much better results with a slower weapon. That might in part be linked to my preference to Seal of Righteousness though, as Seal of Righteousness procs on Hammer of the Righteous with whatever strength it has per hit which is much higher with a slow weapon. I can do ~800 damage per Hammer of the Righteous per target pretty easy with the Mrgl Blade, while the damage with my Unbreakable Will was a lot lower.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

• frmorrison

SoR scales with weapon speed, enough that some beta Ret Paladins use it over the more melee-type seals.

Seal of Blood will have a use for Prot; assume you are a high level and want to tank a lower level instance. There you can self damage yourself to get some SA mana back. Also, if you are not hit capped, Judgement of Blood will never miss so it can be useful when pulling.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Smurrf

Perhaps we've discovered the way to tank stuff we're outgeared for finally? That much damage incoming will have something for healers to do in the opening portion of a fight, which helps mana return from SA.

Probably a very bad idea on stuff you're on-par with, though.

 

Nobbynob Littlun

It's just a gut feeling, I havent tested it, but I think that the effects of AP on HotR might have an AoE-like coefficient. It certainly seems like strength and attack power don't increase its damage much, even when equipped in droves, making damage range the main consideration. I'll be sure and check this out, as my decision to gem/enchant for spellpower or strength will likely hinge on it.

But again, wild conjecture here. It probably doesn't help my ability to perceive the difference that increases on HotR itself are well overshadowed by the weaponspeed->SoRighteous mechanic that Chicken mentions, as the difference there is... well, it'll quickly become obvious to everyone that a slow weapon is awesome And here I thought Heartless would never do anything but sit in my bank looking pretty!

 

• Chicken

I managed to get my macro posted earlier to work, go figure I had to put "player" and "target" the other way around. It only works if you land your first attack before a mob aggros on you though, and even then it's not entirely certain, so testing is limited to neutral mobs.

Numbers are based on the threat numbers from the macro, which should be Blizzard's own threat numbers. I've rounded the numbers to 1 decimal, rounding up or down to get as close to an appropriate rounded number as possible. The actual in-game numbers I got had 10 decimals. I discarded any data I had from crits, though the numbers I got from those indicates that crits are indeed simply extra damage and simply generate threat as expected from the damage they deal.

Hammer of the Righteous:
94 damage - 112.8 threat
95 damage - 114 threat
96 damage - 115.2 threat
157 damage - 188.4 threat
158 damage - 189.6 threat
159 damage - 190.8 threat

Righteous Fury does not affect Hammer of the Righteous threat at all, but currently Hammer of the Righteous is dealing physical damage, so that's not surprising. Seems like Hammer of the Righteous generates ~20% extra threat on top of what we'd expect. These damage numbers should also not be seen as an idea of what kind of damage the ability does, I was using a level 1 weapon while in my healing gear to minimize the damage dealt by the ability.

Shield of Righteousness:
664 damage - 796.8 threat, 1513.9 threat with Righteous Fury
680 damage - 816 threat, 1550.4 threat with Righteous Fury
734 damage - 880 threat, 1673.5 threat with Righteous Fury
771 damage - 925.2 threat, 1757.9 threat with Righteous Fury

Unfortunately I can't easily get a few small numbers close together with block value like I could by equiping a weak weapon like with Hammer of the Righteous. The numbers indicate however that Shield of Righteousness also generates ~20% extra threat on top of the damage it deals, and that Righteous Fury works multiplicitavely with it.

Some other quick testing indicates that Avenger's Shield also has a 20% extra threat modifier. Exorcism produces threat equal to the damage it deals, both of those are without Righteous Fury. Unfortunately I can't get numbers from the macro for melee attacks, seal procs, judgements, Holy Wrath, Holy Shield, Blessing of Sanctuary, Retribution Aura or Consecration as all of these either require me to be in combat, or trigger neutral mobs to be in combat without it being seen as the first atack.

The macro I used in case anyone wants to test for themselves:

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Left

I'm guessing this isn't intentional? The tooltip seems to indicate holy damage is intended, or did they change that in a recent build?

EDIT: In other news, Consecration now scales with AP?

 

bellator

Chicken,

Nice work with finding this out. 20% for HotR and SHotR and AS(if this isnt a bug) is very nice indeed. Raid buffed, they will be putting out some nice threat.

It is a bug, both HotR and DS are both doing physical damage not holy damage as intended.

As for the consecration change, this has been in since the previous build when they gave all our abilities an AP coefficient.

 

Thorgred

Some numbers to play with:
Extrapolating from the Daunting Legguards (93 stam 54 Str, lv80 crafted blue), you could expect the following stats on a lv80 entry/naxx level raider:

(assuming divine strength, TblT, Combat expertise and sacred duty)
Unbuffed: 1250 Stam, 680 STR:
Raid buffed: (kings, might, strength of earth, battle shout, blood pact, mark of the wild, fortitude)

1900 Stam, 3400 AP, 600 SP.


What does that mean in terms of threat?
(assume seals of the pure, improved judgement)
Vengeance DOT: 1000TPS
Judge Vengeance: 700 TPS
Shield of Righteousness: 650
Consecrate: 550 per target
Righteousness Swing: 550
Judge Righteousness: 600
Judge Wisdom: 410
Hammer of the Righteous: 220 per target.
Imp Holy Shield: 95 TPS per block.


Vengeance dot will be easy to maintain on multiple targets with judicious use of HotR. 1500 TPS on 5 mobs at once?
Hammer of the Righteous threat looks low to me, though i think i'm calculating it right:
(Speed*DPS+AP/14)*1.05*1.9*1.2

An easy rotation looks to be just pressing all the buttons in order over an 8 second cycle: Judge, Hammer, Shield, Consecrate, Holy Shield

This comes to approximately 3300 TPS, with fully 1/3 of that coming from the Vengeance DOT.




As an aside: Tailoring for Prot Pallys?
Lightweave Embroidery
Embroiders a subtle pattern of light into your cloak, giving you a chance to cause an additional 800 to 1000 Holy damage when you damage an enemy with a spell.
You can only embroider your own cloak and embroidering your cloak will cause it to become soulbound.

 

◊ Cathela

I mentioned this in the other thread, but a more efficient rotation is 9 seconds, with 1/2 Imp. Judgement. HS, Conc, Judge on each cycle, and then you alternate between 2ShR/1HotR and 1ShR/2HotR (so you get 3 of each every 18 seconds).

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.