Sorry if i'm not understanding you correctly, but over a 18 second cycle you're trying to fit in 12 GCD's each with different cooldown/durations? I haven't managed to do be able to organise the CD's like that without dropping at least one spell per rotation, which always ends up for me as lower TPS than a simple cycle.
Exactly what cast order are you running?

HS, ShR, Judge, HotR, Cons, ShR, HS, HotR, Judge...
You're hitting ShR and HotR every 6, HS, Judge and Consecrate every 9.
Only real downside is it's so efficient, you have no openings for resealing, exorcism, etc etc, but you can just drop one of the 9s (I'd think consecrate is the most likely candidate) for that rotation.

We're running T6 content currently and I get many chances for Weapons I generally would never use as a protection paladin.
With the forthcoming expansion is their a particular weapon I should be aiming to get for my Tanking duties?

This is just based mostly on feeling, not proper theorizing or testing, but I have a feeling getting a [Rising Tide] would be excellent. Other slow one-handers would work as well, but Rising Tide comes with good stamina as well.

I know someone gave you a straight answer, but here is a more illustrated one. It assumes 1/2 Improved Judgement for the 9 second cooldown and that you run consecration every 9 seconds

00.0 HotR
01.5 Holy Shield
03.0 ShR
04.5 Judgment
06.0 HotR
07.5 Consecration
09.0 ShR
10.5 Holy Shield
12.0 HotR
13.5 Judgment
15.0 ShR
16.5 Consecration

at 18.0 you would start over with HotR. It basically treats Judgement, Holy Shield, and Consecration as 9 second cooldowns, so you have to spec 1/2 Improved Judgement and allow for 1 second of no consecration. Every two minutes you replace a consecration with a reseal. Or if you want to play with seal swapping it would happen in some of the consecration slots.

EDIT: I just typed out a description of the whole thing, but on re-reading I realize I'm just repeating what jere and Qalor already said. So yes, what they said.


On another note, I really hadn't thought about it until I specced prot to tank a 5-man, but the new mechanics in WotLK really gave our healing a very nice buff. Consider an example:

Say right now in T6 tanking gear I have ~1500 stam raid buffed and 450 spelldamage, with 250 of that coming from the weapon slot. If I'm tanking a fight in that gear, and I need to start healing (my add dies, I get switched out of a rotation, whatever), then I can switch out my tanking weapon for a healing weapon with (let's say) +450 healing. The spelldamage from my tanking gear is also +healing... so now I've got a whopping +650 healing. So my FoLs get an extra 279 points of healing from my gear. Whoopty-do.

Now imagine the same situation in WotLK. I have 1500 stam raid buffed in tanking gear, and still I have 450 spellpower, but all of that spellpower comes from TbtL, and I'm using a heavy melee weapon for HotR to tank. Now I need to start healing in that gear, so I switch out my tanking weapon for a spellpower weapon (250 SP) and now I'm up to 700 spellpower. Furthermore, FoL has a 100% spellpower coefficient, so 700 spellpower actually means an extra 700 points of healing on each FoL. That's not up there with a Holy paladin by any stretch, but it's a hell of a lot better than we get now.

Interesting if we would end up in the position of off-healing in our tanking gear even if we could do a gear swap. I'm far behind on content so the best example I can offer is Shade of Aran. Not any use for a tank there so I swap to my hand-me-down healing gear. However the conversion from STA on tanking gear might be enough that such gear swaps might not be needed.

HotR threat is indeed fairly inordinately low per target. Its big advantage is, as you noted, that it can stack Holy Vengeance on multiple targets at once. That's pretty badass AE threat.

Not quite. Should be (Speed*DPS + AP/14*2.4)*1.05*1.9*1.2 This assumes the HotR is normalized, otherwise you would replace the 2.4 with Speed. It won't make a huge difference either way, but this updated calculation gives a large increase in damage from yours.

Given this rotation, we can get some idea of the relative value and scaling of the various threat booster talents.

WARNING: large amounts of badly formatted arithmetic ahead.
OTHER WARNING: this is all beta stuff.

Assumptions:

• 5% melee/spell miss, 10% melee parry, 30% armor reduction, 5% crit.
• 2.6 speed weapon; HotR normalized to 2.4 speed.
• 3/3 shield spec, 2/2 imp. HS, 3/3 SotT, 3/3 TbtL.
• high threat from HotR and ShR is +20%.
• all % modifiers are multiplicative.
• SoR since it's easier to model.
• no block rating except for defense ( = 10.6% chance to block).
• a single target which has a chance to hit the paladin once every 1.8 seconds.
• the paladin has 45% avoidance.

Approximate chance for Redoubt to be active is (1 - (.45 + .55 * .9) ^ 4) = 20%, for about 6% more block on average.

Base threat by ability is:

a = attack power = 2 * s + b

b = attack power from non-strength sources

c = consecration base damage (904 @ 80 according to wowhead)

d = weapon dps

h = holy shield base damage (211 & 80 according to wowhead)

p = spell power

s = strength

v = block value not from strength

HotR = 3 * ( weapon damage * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.9) = 3 * ( (2.6 * d + 2.4 * a / 14) * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.9)

ShR = 3 * ((s / 2 + v) * 1.3 * 2 * 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.2 * 1.9)

Consecration = 2 * ( c + 8 * (.04 * a + .04 * p)) * 1.9

Holy Shield = 10 * .466 * (h + .05 * p) * 1.2 * 1.15 * 1.3 * 1.9

Judgement = 2 * (.36 * a + .58 * p) * 1.25 * 1.05 * 1.9

SoR = 18 * .85 * (.05 * a + .1 * p) * 1.9

melee = 18 * .85 * .7 * (d + a / 14) * 1.05

multiplying through gives:

HotR = 7.18 * (2.6 * d + 2.4 * a / 14) = 18.67 * d + 17.23 * ( s / 7 + b / 14) = 18.67 * d + 2.46 * s + 1.23 * b

ShR = 10.74 * s + 21.47 * v

Consecration = 3.8 * c + 1.22 * a + 1.22 * p = 3.8 * c + 2.44 * s + 1.22 * b + 1.22 * p

HS = 15.88 * h + .79 * p

Judge = 3.6 * s + 1.8 * b + 2.89 * p

SoR = 2.91 * s + 1.45 * b + 2.91 * p

melee = 11.25 * d + 1.61 * s + .8 * b

Total: 29.92 * d + 6.5 * b + 3.8 * c + 23.76 * s + 7.81 * p + 15.88 * h + 21.47 * v

It seems pretty clear that of all these factors, strength is the easiest to get more of. c and h are fixed by level, d increases slightly per tier (and may involve smacking around melee dps for loot rights), p increases almost exclusively at 30% the rate stamina does, v should be much more rare with the gear homogenization push due to death knights not being able to block, and b caps out due to there only being so many AP buffs.

This also tells us that 1 weapon dps is worth about 3.8 spell power, at least given the assumptions above. I know others have been trying to estimate that. Do the numbers match?

Divine Strength

Only affects the strength term:

Total: 29.92 * d + 6.5 * b + 3.8 * c + 27.32 * s + 7.81 * p + 15.88 * h + 21.47 * v

Seals of the Pure

Affects the Judge and SoR components:

Judge += 0.54 * s + .27 * b + .43 * p

SoR += .44 * s + .22 * b + .44 * p

Total: 29.92 * d + 6.99 * b + 3.8 * c + 24.74 * s + 8.68 * p + 15.88 h + 21.47 * v

Reckoning

Reckoning increases the SoR and melee terms. The chance for Reckoning to be active is approximately (1 - (.45 + .55 * .9) ^ 3) = 15.6% (overly simplistic model?), so:

SoR += .45 * s + .23 * b + .45 * p

melee += 1.76 * d + .25 * s + .12 * b

Total: 31.68 * d + 6.84 * b + 3.8 * c + 24.46 * s + 8.26 * p + 15.88 * h + 21.47 * v

One-Handed Weapon Specialization

Total: 31.42 * d + 6.83 * b + 3.99 * c + 24.95 * s + 8.2 * p + 16.67 * h + 22.54 * v

Conviction

Affects HotR, ShR, Judge, and melee:

HotR += .89 * d + .12 * s + .06 * b

ShR += .51 * s + 1.02 * v

Judge += .17 * s + .09 * b + .14 * p

melee += .54 * d + .08 * s + .04 * b

Total: 31.35 * d + 6.69 * b + 3.8 * c + 24.64 * s + 7.95 * p + 15.88 * h + 22.49 * v

Now we can plug in some actual numbers to compare. Let's assume 120 dps weapon, 2000 stamina ( = 600 spell power), 1500 attack power aside from strength, 200 block value, and 500 strength (no idea if those are at all realistic...). That gives us threat in 18 seconds of:

base: 40,906

DS: 42,766

SotP: 42,733

Reck: 42,327

1HWS: 42,542

Conv: 42,171

Reckoning looks clearly overpriced to me. 1H spec should look stronger relative to the others in a scenario with multiple targets.

Interesting work, Lunk. Regarding this:

That seems kinda low to me, at least as an overall average. I could see a boss maybe having an autoattack that slow (although I think most probably autoattack at 1.5 or faster), but almost every boss has specials that operate independently of autoattack. I would guess that 1.0-1.2 is probably a more reasonable average (though I could be way off in either direction.)

Frankly, my real hope is that I'll inspire someone who has a lot more free time to do a more complete analysis . It'll probably take a spreadsheet, too.

Most of the non-DW bosses I remember looking at seem to have auto-attack speeds in the 2.0-2.5 second range, at least after they're Thunder Clapped and ignoring parry. I haven't checked that many, though, and it's been awhile; I could easily be underestimating. It seems to fit, too, with 2 guaranteed blocks every 5 seconds being enough to provide warriors with highly reliable uncrushability against most bosses on live. I was guessing on a 2.5 auto-attack with specials taking it down to 1.8 overall.

I did consider using a smaller number, but 1.8 seconds has the additional convenience of resulting in 10 attacks in the 18 second cycle, which slightly reduces the chance I'll make an arithmetic error and not catch it.

As for the values to use:
Using the WoWWiki iLevel formulas for stat ratios between items (they are correct), and extrapolating from the Daunting Legguards (crafted lv80 blue smithing item) stat values, a typical prot pally would have about:
1900 stam, 3400 AP, 600 SP, raid buffed (with fort, shouts, totems, blessings). (1050 strength, 120 dps 2.4 spd weapon)

From that, with this 9 second rotation:
Seal of Righteousness - Melee Proc: =2.4*(0.05*AP+0.1*SP)*1.15*1.05*1.9/2.4 = 525 TPS
..................................Judgement: =1.25*(0.58*AP+0.36*SP)*1.15*1.05*1.9/9 = 500 TPS
Shield of Righteousness ...............: =2*(Str/2+BV)*1.05*1.9/6 = 580 TPS
Hammer of the Righteous.............: =2.4*(120+AP/14)*1.05*1.9*1.2/6 = 350 TPS
Holy Shield: (3 blocks over 9 secs) : =3*(211+0.5*SP)*1.05*1.15*1.9*1.35/9 = 250 TPS
Consecrate..................................: =8*(113+0.04*AP+0.04*SP)*1.05*1.9/9 = 480 TPS
Melee Swing................................: =2.4*(120+AP/14)*1.05/2.4 = 375 TPS
Seal of Vengeance - Melee Proc: =2.4*0.012*SP*1.05*1.15*1.9/2.4 = 16 TPS
..................5 stack Judgement: =1.5*(0.58*AP+0.36*AP)*1.05*1.15*1.9/9 = 600 TPS
...........................5-stack DoT: = (0.07*AP+5*0.035*SP)*6*1.05*1.15*1.9/18 = 260 TPS
(Assuming vengeance is 0.07*AP+ Stack*0.035*SP, not stack*(0.07*AP+0.035*SP)


With Seal of Righteousness: 3070 TPS.
With Seal of Vengeance: 2915 TPS.
(not accounting for misses, resists, armor or reckoning)
However SoV would most likely overtake SoR by a good amount on any AoE situation, as HotR will allow the DoT to be stacked on more than one mob.

With SoR: 0.45 TPS per Attack Power, 0.53 TPS per Spellpower, 2 TPS per Weapon DPS.
With SoV: 0.41 TPS per Attack Power, 0.5 TPS per Spellpower, 2 TPS per weapon DPS
SoR scaling is out of control



Then the big question: Melee vs Caster weapon??
Well, lets put the Titansteel Guardian vs the Titansteel bonecrusher, all stats as listed above, plus the stats on the item:
With SoR + Bonecrusher: 3185 TPS
With SoR + Guardian: 3261

Titansteel guardian seems to have an inordinate amount of Spelldamage: currently it sits at 8x the sacrificed DPS (TBC weapons is 4x). However the blue weapons we've seen have bee 6x. Different item formulas in WotLK, as far as i know that is the only lv80 SP weapon to go off, so atm we still can't be sure. Not much in it either way.

Very interesting. With auto attacks doing 900 TPS (attack + SoR), reckoning might be a lot more valuable...which makes us want even more talent points.

I thought that SoV was currently stack*(0.07*AP+0.035*SP), or did it change back?

What would it look like with that assumed instead?

EDIT:

Let's see with 0.35*AP+0.17*SP on a 5 stack at 3400 AP and 600 SP:

(0.35*3400+0.17*600)*6/18*1.05*1.15*1.9 = 1292*6/18*1.05*1.15*1.9 = 988 TPS

Compared to 260, that is an increase of 728 TPS making the totals:

With Seal of Righteousness: 3070 TPS.
With Seal of Vengeance: 3643 TPS.

The tooltip on wowhead says different to the info on the first page of the pally thread. I'm not sure which is correct so i went with the conservative one, considering a 700 dps upgrade seemed a little odd. would be great for some input from a person in beta.

It looks as though SoVengeance has been reduced back to 15 sec duration. Not a huge issue, though it does mean that seal twisting is nearly impossible now.

Source

I must be missing it somewhere, but a quick search only turned up 18 seconds in the thread you linked. Where are you getting the 15?

The thread you linked says:
EDIT: Ah so you are referring to the underlining. I guess I am so used to strike through on other forums that I missed that.

Whilst it is underlined indicating it has been removed, on beta, it is still 18 seconds. Much like the notes say vengeance only stacks twice when in fact it still stacks 3 times on beta.

We'll have to wait to see if these patch notes are for a future build or are outdated and the sov/vengeance changes are wrong.

This Week we bring for the first time a Protadin to Illidan for P2. We already killed Illidan 3 times (some of us more then that). First, the movement was not so good, so we have a lot ov wipe because of enraged Elementals. But after a while it was ok. The main Problem was the Aggro. We kill the Protection Elemental second and still have huge Aggro problems. Range Caster has to stop for a longer time.

Maybe you can help us, here are the WWS from yesterday. Wow Web Stats

I would find that pretty surprising if you kill his elemental second. With a full rotation of Exorcism, Consecrate, Judge, and regular old autoattack he should be able to build tons of threat to stay ahead as the second tank. Because of the lack of Holy Shield paladins are not ideal first tanks, but second should be fairly easy if he is appropriately geared.

I haven't (yet) seen the Illidan fight, but I'm assuming the elementals can't be blocked. What else is your prot. paladin tanking? I see a lot of "Holy Shield" gains, but no damage output listed for "Holy Shield". Seems like a big mana sink that could possibly be used for other abilities instead.

The overall damage output balance is somewhat misleading, as I'm assuming that a lot of it is from times other than phase 2.

One other note: I'm seeing 22 Illidan attempts listed, but only 14 times that your paladin tank gained Righteous Fury. (Compare to 22 Prayer of Fortitude gains, which indicates the number of times this target was rebuffed.) I'm guessing that forgetting to put on an agro increasing ability could have some effect... unless the paladin was waiting until P2 to cast Righteous Fury and some of those attempts didn't get out of P1.