Qalor

I can't see his FR gear in the armory but his average damage in that gear is lower than mine and my FR gear isn't wonderful for threat - in the 300s unbuffed I want to say. Is he using wizard oil for extra threat? Popping AW for a threat boost while tanking it?

 

Prinsesa

Left is right (as in correct). Elementals can miss, be dodged or be parried, but no blocked, so you can tell your Protadin to stop using Holy Shield completely.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Gunn

While holy shield is useless. It neither hurts nor hinders.

The problem is he's judging Light not Crusader

This is how I start the the Flame tanking

Wait by glaive, when it hits the ground I have Seal of Crusader up, Hit Avenging Wrath, Consecrate, when the flame appears I judge Crusader, hit excorcism, re-seal Righteousness and it's game on.

Unless your DPS are trying to wipe you just tell them to chillax for a 10seconds. It's not a DPS race.

 

◊ Oggie

Few (very few) modifications:
Seal Crusader when he takes off. Cons when the Glaive appears. Spam judgement (NOT a judgement macro) with no target so it'll auto target very quickly when they spawn. Hit SoR, AW when that GCD finishes. Then Excorism, Avenger's Shield, then go to a standard high threat rotation (SoR and AW should let you position cleanly, that's 3 seconds). In my experince, this is the highest TPS rotation available.

 

Eradorn

Quick question guys.

My raid is to Leo in SSC. I have a lock and my tankadin, but I am loathe to use my lock to tank since the drops are so much better for my Pali.

With the right FR, will my pali have a big disadvantage tanking over my lock? The guides seem to disagree, and I trust your advice more.

 

◊ Oggie

Paladin has a bigger health pool and the ability to drop the stack at will once every 4 minutes.

Warlock has a higher threat threshold, easier time reaching FR cap, and 20% of the damage is transfered to the pet.

Pick.

I did it every time for my guild's leo kills, being the FR tank from day one. I also learned it well before the newer (not newest) round of badge gear and combat expertise, so i can only imagine it's easier now. I still think a lock's a better choice, but a paladin certainly works (and it's quite easy to melee with a paladin tank, just make sure the paladin and the melee are at max range).

 

Tilted

I've mentioned this before, but ally prot pallies are brokenly (that's a word, right?) good at tanking Leo during his elf phase. Between using AS to pick up aggro after whirlwinds, substantial threat generation from a fast-attacking target, tons of damage mitigated from blocks, SoV building during demon phase over to elf then switch to SoR for even more threat gen, and zero concerns to dying to an inner demon, my guild had me tank him elf-phase every single kill. Does your guild not have another FR tank as an option? Demo locks really do edge out any other class in this role if only due to the fact that they can tank from range, allowing melee to easily unload with zero concerns of survival. The damage split from Soul Link is just icing on the cake, as a single Lifebloom stack on the felhunter will be ample to keep it alive.

And thanks on the p2 Illidan tips guys. My guild just started working on him last week, and that phase certainly adds a challenge I've never dealt with before. All the more rewarding I guess once we get him down.

 

Lunkhedd

I finally got around to putting together a crude (ODF) spreadsheet to estimate paladin threat generation in Wrath. It's currently available on Free file hosting by Savefile.com, which is a site I'm not very familiar with; if people have trouble accessing the file, I'll move it.

The math could stand to be reviewed. I intentionally skipped a few features in the beta that look like bugs (e.g. shield spec not affecting block value from strength). Most numbers come from Cathela's first post in the Wotlk paladin thread, and I initialized the paladin's stats from the numbers Thorgred extrapolated from the Daunting Legguards. Currently only covers one target.

There are a few things that stand out:

• Seal of Righteousness significantly outperforms Seal of Vengeance. This seems to be due to three factors: it scales better with Hammer of the Righteous, parry, haste, and Reckoning, it scales with Divine Strength and SoV doesn't, and the sample paladin has more than 5 times as much attack power as spell power.
• Blizzard mentioned the threat from Blessing of Salvation would get shoved into tank threat generation. It looks like for paladins, that's in Shield of Righteousness. It's by far the largest percentage of any ability to total threat generated on a single target.
• Shield of Righteousness, Consecration, and Judgement are the highest threat per GCD moves against a single target. They're close enough that the order will vary with stats and by which judgement is used.

The relatively weak showing of SoV is a bit curious. Right now, it looks like it's primarily a soloing seal for holy builds. I'm not sure what the best way to fix it might be. One option would be a talent out of reach of ret that allows faster judgements, since the judgement is its strongest feature.

 

jere

This statement confuses me. SoV should scale somewhat with Attack Power, which is affected by Divine Strength since most of our AP appears to be coming from STR.

What equation did you use for SoV? I can't download the spreadsheet to see.

The most recent equation I had seen was

DMG_per_tick = V*(0.07*AP + 0.034*SP) ==> 0.35*AP + 0.17*SP at a 5 stack.

Has that changed?

 

Lunkhedd

The equations I have are .07 * ap + .17 * sp for the DoT and 0 * ap + .012 * ap for the per-hit damage (both with a full stack), from Cathela's post in the other thread. I hope I was talking about the per-hit damage there but I might have mixed myself up. In either case, I misspoke--the DoT and the Judgement both benefit from extra strength, but the damage from extra hits with a full stack does not.

If you're right about the AP coefficient scaling with the stack size, SoV overtakes SoR handily, at least when ignoring setup time and chance to fall off as the spreadsheet does.

 

• Chicken

Chance to fall off? You did take into account that SoV was changed to proc on all hits now correct? Due to that the chance of it falling off seems quite minute.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

bellator

Yes, in beta, a full stack DoT does have (.07*Stacks) AP coefficient. It is unknown if this is intended or not, as in an earlier iteration of the beta, the DoT was .07 regardless of stack size.

 

jere

Well later on in that thread it was reported to have been changed to 7% per stack up to 35% for a full stack:
WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion

I haven't read of it being reverted back to 7% flat yet. I wonder if Cathela didn't update the OP? I think it is also listed on the ingame tooltips as 7% per stack now (see the wowhead site).

EDIT: Bellator beat me to it

 

Lunkhedd

Yes, in any fight where the tank doesn't lose chances to hit, the chance of SoV falling off is, as far as I can tell, the same as the chance the paladin will miss every melee and HotR attack for 15 seconds straight, which should be pretty low. That's one reason I didn't bother trying to model it.

The other reason is that attempting to generalize all possible fights where the paladin will miss opportunities to attack (Gruul, say) is a lost cause.

To factor in the average time to build up the stack, I'd need an estimated fight length, which seems like an unnecessary complication at this level of abstraction. The build up time doesn't really apply to tank-switching fights like Netherspite or Nalorakk or to multi-target fights where the paladin's mob isn't hit first anyway, where you can get it for free.

 

jere

I think he was confused why you even mentioned it being that in WotLK it is pretty much a non-issue for the general case (as your post that I quoted indicates you believe as well). He was probably surprised it was mentioned was probably all.

 

caleel

Ok I am not trying to derail this thread. It seemed the most appropriate place to talk about pal tanking questions. I tried to post my own thread but I guess them dam elitists make board noobs wait. Anyways I was saving for an epic mount, but in reality I don’t care about having one. I will use that money to buy epic gems for my current sets. Most likely the guild alliance folks I run with wont get much past tier4 and maybe some tier 5 content before wrath and im looking to maximize my character in the content I will be in.

Gem advice. I currently have the justicar set Justicar Armor - Item Set - World of Warcraft (minus the helm) and the tankatronic goggles [Tankatronic Goggles]. I have mitigation pieces that I use but they decrease my spell damage and thus my threat. Those pieces are the iron gauntlets of the maiden [Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden], pauldrons of stone resolve [Pauldrons of Stone Resolve], wrynn dynasty greaves [Wrynn Dynasty Greaves], and can use the sunward crest [Sunward Crest] or the dragonheart flameshieldhttp://www.wowhead.com/?item=28611. Here is my current armory in my tanking set The World of Warcraft Armory, and my imba Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft.

What I am looking for is advice on gemming my justicar set or any of the mitigation pieces to keep my spell damage at the highest possible amount. I normally use the tank pal program that shows me how uncrushable I am, but using epic quality gems I do not want to take the risk on buying/cutting more than I need.

Using the justicar and/or any of the mitigation pieces what are the mins needed for uncrushability keeping spell damage at its highest? If anyone can help me it would be appreciated.

on a side not i have been really unlucky on rolls for the amani punisher [Amani Punisher], and the bloodmaw magus blade [Bloodmaw Magus-Blade] either would help also, i know.

 

Aeverius

You want someone to tell you all the possible ways you can gem all those pieces of gear, in all possible combinations, while remaining uncrushable and maximizing spelldamage? Um, no. No one here is working with any more information than you are; you're just being lazy.

You would be way better served to spend badges on something like [Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor] rather than spending the badges on putting epic gems in [Wrynn Dynasty Greaves]. Also, if you're that concerned with spelldamage, you'd be well served to upgrade from the [Continuum Blade], perhaps to the [Merciless Gladiator's Gavel]; this is probably a better idea than putting Spinels in all your gear.

Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:

 

caleel

no just the mins, like do i need 4 epic agils or 3 epic agils? my next purchase will be the inscribed legplates and i plan on epic gemming that but i only have 50 badges, should have enough after kara on tuesday and 1 heroic if there 75. one more week if they are 100 cant remember how many it cost atm.

 

Aeverius

Are you asking how many [Delicate Crimson Spinel] to put in your gear? The answer is none, because Agility is an awful stat to gem for a Paladin. "Which gems do I use?" is not a question with a hard or fast answer, excepting the fact that some gems are just less useful than others (Dodge rating is better than Parry, for instance, so there's no good reason to gem Parry). You pick the gear you want, gem it so it meets minimum standards (uncrit/uncrush) and then maximize the values you want; that's all there is to it.

Improved Lay on Hands is really fucking good:

 

jere

Here is a pretty good site to check out. You can search for almost any type of gear/item/spell/etc. and it has quite a few very useful filters to help narrow down.

For example, on your dodge question:
Gems - Items - World of Warcraft

You can change the criteria to match any other gems you are interested in.

I use this site pretty often. It is very helpful. I hope that helps out.

 

Nobbynob Littlun

Use wowhead.com (with its filters!) and sites like Warcrafter, chardev, and Be Imba to decide on what gear to use and gems to socket. You don't need this forum for that when such resources are out there for you to learn and use.

Anyways, more on WotLK. I continue to hear from other prot paladins about mana issues, and this seems a suitable place to say that Hammer of the Righteous is the answer. With a really slow weapon, every time you Hammer you'll pretty much always get two or three seal procs. If you use both Judgement and Seal of Wisdom, and especially if Reckoning is running, you can go from low to full mana ridiculously fast (and then switch back to your other seal). For that matter, Seal of Light can do a crapload of healing on you in the same manner. And Seal of Wisdom/Light scale now.

 

◊ Cathela

Whoops, missed that one. Thanks for the reminder.


Lunk: I can't access the spreadsheet at the moment (problem on my end, not yours) but I assume you're using the 6/9 rotation? If so, something you might want to look into would be the threat difference between consecration spam, and using those GCDs instead to twist seals. So, the two rotations would be:

HS-ShR-Jdg-HotR-Cns-ShR-HS-HotR-Jdg-ShR-Cns-HotR-HS

vs

HS-ShR-Jdg-HotR-SoV-ShR-HS-HotR-Jdg-ShR-SoR-HotR-HS

Basically the difference is two Consecrations plus one seal, versus no consecrations but SoV and half a cycle of SoR.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Prinsesa

Do we have an idea if our overall threat is going up or down, considering:
* a level 70-only build
* new WOTLK mechanics
* no retroactive changes to existing Paladin tanking gear?

For example, my current Prot set is at 396 spell damage. TBC mechanics list Consecration as [512 + 95% * SP], or 888.2 damage for me.

Once the new talents kick in, I'll get an additional 375 spell power from Touched by the Light, bringing my total SP to 771. I also currently have 436 AP. WOTLK Consecration is [8 * (72 + 4% * SP + 4% * AP)], or 962 damage.

EDIT: Holy Shield is probably going up absolutely, since its scaling didn't change plus we're getting Shield of the Templar. I have very little idea how to compare Seal of Righteousness though, nor how to factor in Hammer of the Righteous given how small our weapon damage will be.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

bellator

Prinsesa,

Our threat is definately going up without a doubt. As you pointed out Holy Shield and Consecration is Going up. SoR will probably go up. JoR will definately go up. Plus we have two new abilities in HotR and SotR.

 

• Chicken

[Gavel of Unearthed Secrets] might be an interesting item with WotLK's changes coming early. While it wouldn't make Hammer of the Righteous too much stronger by itself, the much larger Seal of Righteousness per hit damage might make up for the spell damage loss otherwise.

There's also nothing stopping you from picking up a slow, normal weapon. Well, outside of other classes wanting them, but if they drop often enough items like [Rising Tide] are typically not too interesting for most classes.

It's also the case that we don't get Shield of Righteousness yet, and that's the ability that really causes the shift from spell damage to strength as a threat stat for us. Strength still has the advantage of a survivability increase through shield block value of course.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of