Protection and you! - Page 8

Wolftusk · 10/24/07, 9:40 AM

If i understand correctly, increasing your defense rating will increase your chance of being missed by an attack from a mob. Does anywhere in the default user interface show you your chance of being missed?

I notice that when i hover over my defense skill, it says something like "Decreases chance of being hit and critically hit by X%"

For me to determine my total chance of being missed, do i add that X to the base number of 5?

• Chicken · 10/24/07, 9:47 AM

I believe hovering over defense should give you your additional miss chance yes, and as you said, you then just add 5 and you should have your real chance to be missed.

Tyvi · 10/24/07, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC

All Buff Gain do generate Aggro. Battleshout (Rank 7) does +60 per target buffed.

I am pretty sure they changed it to do the same, small amount of threat regardless of how many people got buffed by BS. Just in the same way Demo Shout splits it's 50 or something threat it causes on all affected targets.

Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC

But 120 Threat every 8 Sec. is not that bad.

If this is like any other buff/power gain, the threat will be spread around over all targets that are aware of you. It's nice to get initial aggro for sure, but nothing to really count on in AoE phases.

novasphere · 10/24/07, 10:12 AM

Has anyone managed to check out what the new damage is on SoV's 5-stack procs? I noticed a patch note on MMO-Champion mentioning this, but no information about it. My computer's on the fritz so I can't test myself. :/

Sarkan-ZdC · 10/24/07, 10:37 AM

From the 2.3 Testrealm Thread:

Seal of Vengeance (with one-handed spec):
Gavel of Unearthed Secrets, 2.7 speed, 321 spelldamage - 39 5stack hits, 59 crits
Merciless Gladiator's Gavel, 1.6 speed, 347 spelldamage - 23-24 hits, 35 crits

Definitely looks higher then on live.

-----------------------------

@ Liar, you sure with Demo-Shout? Cause 50 Threat on 5 Targets would just be nothing.. Even just activation of our Seal does (according to this test) 120 Threat so this would be more than twice of Demo-Shout.

And for us, re-buffing us with Seal of Righteousness is something we do all the time (ok, every 8 Sec.), so this is just free Threat. And nothing wrong with that.

Left · 10/24/07, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC

From the 2.3 Testrealm Thread:

Seal of Vengeance (with one-handed spec):
Gavel of Unearthed Secrets, 2.7 speed, 321 spelldamage - 39 5stack hits, 59 crits
Merciless Gladiator's Gavel, 1.6 speed, 347 spelldamage - 23-24 hits, 35 crits

Definitely looks higher then on live.

The patch notes were updated recently, and the following was added:

"Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased."

So yeah, that makes sense. That's going to be a pretty significant increase, I think.

• Chicken · 10/24/07, 11:48 AM

For figuring out the coefficient of the direct damage proc from Seal of Vengeance at 5 stacks, could someone post some numbers on the damage it deals with completely no spell damage? Preferably try it with a few different speed weapons.

Edit: For clarity, I'd like the numbers from patch 2.3; not live.

Fiola · 10/24/07, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Nal

Strictly speaking, this isn't entirely true. Judgement of Blood is unaffected by spell hit insofar as currently on live it never misses. Judgment of Blood is guaranteed to do some damage (you can get a level difference based partial resist I believe).

You can imagine situations where that might prove useful, so perhaps this fact should also be noted in the tips section as well. It's usually the seal I have up at the start of pulls (or when I know I need to pick a target up) for this very reason.

You sure?

That's an interesting plus for JoB, though I guess it simplifies the self-damage portion of it. (ie: Should JoB deal damage to yourself if it's resisted by your target?)

JoC used to never miss either, but they changed that a few patches after 1.9.

That said... what happens when you cast JoB on a CloS'd rogue? Resist check? Guaranteed hit?

Gromweld · 10/24/07, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Hang on; I'm not sure I buy this effect being quite so large unless there's a pretty significant gear gap. The raw difference before shield blocking is applied should have the paladin taking a bit more than 4% more damage than the warrior. Shield block value will tend to widen the difference, but you'd need something like 10k block value to turn a 9k hit into an 8k hit.

If we assume a largish block value of 1k, then a blocked blow that does 9k damage to a paladin should do (9000+1000)*(0.90/0.94) - 1000 = 8574 damage to the warrior. That's not a negligible difference, but it's less than half of 1k. The 5k hit on the paladin is going to hit for 4744 on the warrior, so your total difference for the 9k+5k+9k chain is going to be around 1.1k, not 3k.

I was kinda lumping the "Warriors have over double our Block Value" and "Warriors have more flat% reduction" together, but Illidan's main-hand hits for ~24k before armor and %reduction results in ~600 difference, combined with ~300 more block value that warriors have... it adds up.

Originally Posted by Cathela

And on a fight like Illidan (as I understand he dual-wields and you need to save SB/HS for Shear) I would expect a paladin to be blocking a decent bit more often than a warrior, which would make up most of the gap.

Yes, blocking more but I found out (the hard way) that it's mandatory to save Holy Shield for Shear because of the rate he can rip off attacks when he gets an unlucky streak of Parries. 5 attacks in 3 seconds? Good game, sir.

Originally Posted by Cathela

Have you observed a warrior geared comparably to yourself under the same conditions? I'm guessing you haven't (since if you had, and you'd seen these differences, I'd think you would have had the warrior do it) so... I mean, I believe that you were getting hit really hard, but it might just be that he was hitting you really hard because that's what he does.

Disclaimer: Haven't seen the fight myself, so I may be misunderstanding the mechanics, and I certainly agree with your other points re: Shield Wall/Last Stand and the hp gap.

Our normal MT (Whiteknight on these boards) is better geared than I am (now especially that he got the T6 chest and [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) but he was running Flame Tank duty due in part to the abrupt loss of our only other Warrior tank and my lack of FR gear (and time constraints hindering my accumulation of said gear in time... we were racing for a Server First). In the few times that he swapped to Illidan MT during our trial runs he seemed to be significantly easier to heal.

Cathela · 10/24/07, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gromweld

I was kinda lumping the "Warriors have over double our Block Value" and "Warriors have more flat% reduction" together, but Illidan's main-hand hits for ~24k before armor and %reduction results in ~600 difference, combined with ~300 more block value that warriors have... it adds up.

At your armor level, the DS/RF gap should make a difference of less than 400 points against a 24k-before-armor attack. I can see the block value difference, though.

Yes, blocking more but I found out (the hard way) that it's mandatory to save Holy Shield for Shear because of the rate he can rip off attacks when he gets an unlucky streak of Parries. 5 attacks in 3 seconds? Good game, sir.

Right, but I guess what I'm thinking is that since warriors are under the same constraint, you're still going to have HS up a good bit more often than a warrior will have SB up.

Our normal MT (StormyKnight on these boards) is better geared than I am (now especially that he got the T6 chest and [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) but he was running Flame Tank duty due in part to the abrupt loss of our only other Warrior tank and my lack of FR gear (and time constraints hindering my accumulation of said gear in time... we were racing for a Server First). In the few times that he swapped to Illidan MT during our trial runs he seemed to be significantly easier to heal.

I can't find a StormyKnight user on this board, but based on your description I'm guessing that this profile is your MT using a non-Prot spec for the moment. Assuming that's his tanking gear (and it certainly looks like tanking gear) if we re-apply Toughness he'll have 18643 unbuffed armor, compared to your 17550. That's not a trivial difference -- it means he'll take 3.5% less damage than you will before RF/DS and blocking are applied. Buffs might change that number a little, but not by a lot. It's a significant gear gap.

Gromweld · 10/24/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

At your armor level, the DS/RF gap should make a difference of less than 400 points against a 24k-before-armor attack. I can see the block value difference, though.

Have we been able to determine if RF comes before armor, after, or added to it? I don't recall reading any definitive confirmations either way.

Originally Posted by Cathela

Right, but I guess what I'm thinking is that since warriors are under the same constraint, you're still going to have HS up a good bit more often than a warrior will have SB up.

The time it is up is higher than warriors, yes. However, when the block value of warriors is more than double that of ours, unless he takes off more than 4 charges (which he doesn't most of the time) then the Warrior comes out ahead.

Originally Posted by Cathela

I can't find a StormyKnight user on this board, but based on your description I'm guessing that this profile is your MT using a non-Prot spec for the moment. Assuming that's his tanking gear (and it certainly looks like tanking gear) if we re-apply Toughness he'll have 18643 unbuffed armor, compared to your 17550. That's not a trivial difference -- it means he'll take 3.5% less damage than you will before RF/DS and blocking are applied. Buffs might change that number a little, but not by a lot. It's a significant gear gap.

It's "Whiteknight" - I was reading another forum and my brain imploded as I was typing.

He's wearing the shield from Illidan now, which he got AFTER we killed him. When he was tanking Illidan during our initial tests he was using [Aldori Legacy Defender] - that's the 1100+ armor difference right there.

Cathela · 10/24/07, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gromweld

Have we been able to determine if RF comes before armor, after, or added to it? I don't recall reading any definitive confirmations either way.

It's multiplicative. Whether it comes before or after doesn't matter, since it's multiplication (e.g., 0.94x0.50 = 0.50x0.94).

The time it is up is higher than warriors, yes. However, when the block value of warriors is more than double that of ours, unless he takes off more than 4 charges (which he doesn't most of the time) then the Warrior comes out ahead.

Okay, that does make sense.

It's "Whiteknight" - I was reading another forum and my brain imploded as I was typing.

He's wearing the shield from Illidan now, which he got AFTER we killed him. When he was tanking Illidan during our initial tests he was using [Aldori Legacy Defender] - that's the 1100+ armor difference right there.

Okay, fair enough. I guess all I can say at this point is that I don't see the theorycraft making the difference quite as big as you describe, but you've seen the fight and I haven't.

bellator · 10/24/07, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

For figuring out the coefficient of the direct damage proc from Seal of Vengeance at 5 stacks, could someone post some numbers on the damage it deals with completely no spell damage? Preferably try it with a few different speed weapons.

Edit: For clarity, I'd like the numbers from patch 2.3; not live.

Also, some SoV 5 stack numbers with the amount of +spell damage from gear / +holy damage from gear / JotC (on/off) would be useful incase there are different coefficients going on

Gromweld · 10/24/07, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

It's multiplicative. Whether it comes before or after doesn't matter, since it's multiplication (e.g., 0.94x0.50 = 0.50x0.94).

I figured as much, but I could have sworn that I saw somewhere that calculated it as if it were additive... good to know.

Originally Posted by Cathela

Okay, fair enough. I guess all I can say at this point is that I don't see the theorycraft making the difference quite as big as you describe, but you've seen the fight and I haven't.

I may very well be off my rocker, as I've been a bit wary after nearly getting lynched by the healing crew for the limitations of my class. For your edification, here are our WWS parses:

Wow Web Stats

It wasn't night and day difference, mind you, just in a fight where slight differences can mean "wipe" instead of "kill"... MIND GAMES, MAN!

Nal · 10/25/07, 3:35 AM

Originally Posted by Fiola

You sure?
...
That said... what happens when you cast JoB on a CloS'd rogue? Resist check? Guaranteed hit?

Well, I can't be certain, but according to combat logs my last 200+ or so judgements of blood have all landed. Other paladins have noted the same -- and in 1000s of attempts in some cases. It does less damage/threat than righteousness, but obviously there's significant use in being able to guarantee something lands.

You can't judge blood on magic immune targets, but seal of blood will actually do damage to a magic immune target. Or, at least, it did damage to the Aran trash in the Kara library. That's an interesting quirk. Does seal of command function the same way?

I've never attempted to judge blood on a CloS'd rogue, but I'll try it next time I see one and let you know.