Improved Leader of the Pack (Tier 7) - In addition, you gain 4% of your maximum mana when you benefit from Improved Leader of the Pack heal.
It's a Feral change but I noticed this in today's changes. Could be pretty nice for us now that LotP is raid wide and I'd presume most of us raid with at least one.
As I understood the discussions with Ghostcrawler, I believe that that part of the talent will proc for Druids only, as a way to help their mana-for-shifting issues.
I did some 10-man naxx raiding last night. Just a brief comment that whether or not BoS has been baked into RF etc or not does not matter at this point as according to the threat meters no one was coming close to my threat. The highest anyone had at the end of a single target fight was around 30%. The dps is also very nice. On Patchwerk whilst i highly doubt i was using the ideal dps rotation, my dps from prot tanking hit 1600dps (with craftables/heroics etc)
I did some 10-man naxx raiding last night. Just a brief comment that whether or not BoS has been baked into RF etc or not does not matter at this point as according to the threat meters no one was coming close to my threat. The highest anyone had at the end of a single target fight was around 30%. The dps is also very nice. On Patchwerk whilst i highly doubt i was using the ideal dps rotation, my dps from prot tanking hit 1600dps (with craftables/heroics etc)
Unless the game is 'baking-in' salv threat, this makes no sense. Your TPS can't be over 3k with that much dps, so your dpsers would have to be sitting at something like 1400 dps tops for this all to be true.
I don't question your numbers Bellator, just saying that RF must be generating more threat than +90% if your numbers here are accurate.
Unless the game is 'baking-in' salv threat, this makes no sense. Your TPS can't be over 3k with that much dps, so your dpsers would have to be sitting at something like 1400 dps tops for this all to be true.
I don't question your numbers Bellator, just saying that RF must be generating more threat than +90% if your numbers here are accurate.
If I recall correctly, 40-man Patchwerk gave the tanks some kind of artificial threat buff, so that's probably not the best fight to use as a test. Xaviera got similarly insane numbers for prot warrior threat on Patchwerk as well.
EDIT: Another way to put my earlier point about baked-in salv:
In TBC, warriors have a low damage-to-threat modifier (+45% or so with talents) but have a high-damage threat move (shield slam), while paladins have a high damage-to-threat modifier (+90%) but don't have a high-damage threat move.
So in WotLK, warriors get a buff to their threat modifier, and paladins get shield slam.
EDIT AGAIN: But now I'm doing testing, and it looks like I was wrong!
It's hard to test threat with SotR because it turns on autoattack, and the macro used by Bostung doesn't give threat-per-move, only total threat at the end of each combat log entry.
But testing with Avenger's Shield without RF gives:
From that I'm going to assume that AS has no "high threat" modifier anymore, and that the snare effect causes roughly 30 threat.
Now, testing Avenger's Shield with RF gives:
1560 damage -> 4323.29 threat
If we take away 30 threat to account for the snare, that's 4293 threat from the damage, which is almost exactly what you'd expect if you had the standard RF effect (190% threat from Holy damage), plus an extra bonus for "baked-in salv" (multiply by 142.8%).
It's only one test (I'll do some more to confirm) but it looks like we're getting baked in salv in addition to a couple of new high-threat moves. Seems excessive to me, but I guess at least it means 3.0 won't be a huge worry.
Last edited by Cathela : 09/18/08 at 12:53 PM.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
If Paladins will greatly out-threat other tanks, it will be nerfed. I hope they'll just reduce RF threat multiplier, not damage of tanking skills.
Speaking of defense cap at 80, the best solution seems to be to add druid-like talents for plate tanks - chance to be crit reduced by 2% for Warriors and Paladins, and by 3% for DKs as they don't have a shield. If this talent would be standalone and not baked into something else, it would become skippable by T9, unlike current Anticipation which still provides useful avoidance when you overcap Defense.
Right now all tanks deliver ridiculous levels of threat. From the looks of it Blizzard wants to make threat generation easy in comparison to what it used to be. As-is, any tank who's actually awake will hold aggro no sweat, regardless of class.
Speaking of defense cap at 80, the best solution seems to be to add druid-like talents for plate tanks - chance to be crit reduced by 2% for Warriors and Paladins, and by 3% for DKs as they don't have a shield. If this talent would be standalone and not baked into something else, it would become skippable by T9, unlike current Anticipation which still provides useful avoidance when you overcap Defense.
This is a fair idea for Warriors and Paladins, who have a tank tree.
However, DKs tank and dps trees are the same, so having -3% to be crit (not having a shield doesn't mean you get crit more) would unbalance PvP.
What would work better is lowering the defense cap.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It's only one test (I'll do some more to confirm) but it looks like we're getting baked in salv in addition to a couple of new high-threat moves. Seems excessive to me, but I guess at least it means 3.0 won't be a huge worry.
It might seem excessive to you, on your beta character at whatever level, but please keep in mind that leveling protection paladins will not have SotR until level 75. Our capability to build single target threat should *not* rely on a level 75 skill, it should remain a viable spec through all levels.
It might seem excessive to you, on your beta character at whatever level, but please keep in mind that leveling protection paladins will not have SotR until level 75. Our capability to build single target threat should *not* rely on a level 75 skill, it should remain a viable spec through all levels.
Sure, but breaking balance at level 80 in order to keep things good for leveling characters isn't such a hot idea either.
The best solution would be to have SotR be trainable at an earlier level and balance around it all the way up, although from the looks of things their answer is just going to be "let's just give all tanks a crapton of threat."
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
This is a fair idea for Warriors and Paladins, who have a tank tree.
However, DKs tank and dps trees are the same, so having -3% to be crit (not having a shield doesn't mean you get crit more) would unbalance PvP.
What would work better is lowering the defense cap.
Heh, if 3% would unbalance PvP, then what you say about 6%? Druids do get 6%
Not having a shield means you don't have defense rating on a shield while I do as a Paladin, thus you get crit more. While DKs don't have a dedicated tanking tree such talent can be put shallow in any tree, maybe the least bloated or the least attractive for tanks.
How would you lower the defense cap? Reduce crit chance for all mobs in the game? Youd could change defense stat to give 2x reduced chance to be crit, but this would make defense gear useful in PvP. Hmm, actually a good idea... :p
Ok, so I did some various threat testing on the beta since Cathela's posts intrigued me.
Weapon Damage:
Without RF, 129 damage did 131.58 threat (2% more than the value)
With RF, 131 damage did 191.08 threat (which happens to be 131*1.02*1.43)
Holy Damage:
Without RF, 392 damage did 399.84 threat (2% more)
With RF, 392 damage did 1086.37 threat (which is 392*1.02*1.9*1.43)
Healing:
Without RF: 1381 heal did 352.15 threat (which is 1381*0.25*1.02)
With RF: 4230 heal did 2930.69 threat (which is 4230*0.25*1.02*1.9*1.43)
Both RF and Holy Shield appeared to generate 0 "buffing" threat
Redoubt procs generate 0 "buffing" threat.
Threat from buffing the various Seals was interesting however:
SoR:
Without RF, 1.02 threat (2% more than 1)
With RF, 2.77 threat (which is 1*1.02*1.9*1.43)
SoJ:
Without RF, 22.44 threat (which is 2% more than 22)
With RF, 60.97 (which is 22*1.02*1.9*1.43)
SoL:
Without RF, 30.60 threat (which is 2% more than 30)
With RF, 83.14 (which is 30*1.02*1.9*1.43)
SoW:
Without RF, 38.76 threat (which is 2% more than 38)
With RF, 105.31 (which is 38*1.02*1.9*1.43)
SoV:
Without RF, 65.28 threat (which is 2% more than 64)
With RF, 177.36 (which is 64*1.02*1.9*1.43)
SoM:
Without RF, 67.32 threat (which is 2% more than 66)
With RF, 182.91 (which is 66*1.02*1.9*1.43)
*************************
So
1. There seems to be a 2% inherent threat value regardless (EDIT: 2% threat to gloves!!)
2. Melee dmg gets more threat with RF up than with it down (43% more threat)
3. The baked in salv is only there when RF is up (makes sense)
4. The base threat of buffing seals seems to be equal to the level they are trained
5. RF affected "buffing" threat
6. Redoubt, Holy Shield, and RF don't seem to generate threat from buffing
Nice work, jere! Interesting to see that about white damage, but it makes sense.
Originally Posted by Halion
Our feral friends just got an interrupt. From GC:
Another step towards class homogeny for the tanks.
This should mean good things for Prot Pallies in an upcoming push, so long as we aren't neglected.
Do DKs have an interrupt? If they do, then I think almost certainly we'll get one. If they don't, then I could see having two tanks with interrupts and two without being considered "flavor" (though I hope that's not the end result).
It would be very simple though to simply attach a 4-second (or whatever) interrupt to HoJ. The only effect it would have on PvP would be that dispelling the stun would still leave the target interrupted for a couple seconds.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Nice work, jere! Interesting to see that about white damage, but it makes sense.
Thanks! Yeah I found it interesting too. I found the seal buff threat = training level a bit odd (rather than just having a global threat value), but that amount of threat isn't much anyways.
Originally Posted by Cathela
Do DKs have an interrupt? If they do, then I think almost certainly we'll get one. If they don't, then I could see having two tanks with interrupts and two without being considered "flavor" (though I hope that's not the end result).
Uh, wow. So you're saying a 10k ShoR crit should be generating 32,604 threat? That's reeeeeeeeally excessive. Here's to hoping we have our threat modifiers, not our damage retuned.
We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you. The issue fixed was that the formula now works! This will have a definite effect on all tanks ability to mitigate damage due to effectively lowered amounts of those avoidance values.
We'd love to see combat logs from our more melee intensive raid fights after this change.
Nice work, jere! Interesting to see that about white damage, but it makes sense.
Do DKs have an interrupt? If they do, then I think almost certainly we'll get one. If they don't, then I could see having two tanks with interrupts and two without being considered "flavor" (though I hope that's not the end result).
It would be very simple though to simply attach a 4-second (or whatever) interrupt to HoJ. The only effect it would have on PvP would be that dispelling the stun would still leave the target interrupted for a couple seconds.
There was a glyph for Exorcism at one point that turned it into an interrupt; they should be able to code it as castable on anything but only damage-dealing to undead and demons, and that's another way they could go.
Remember, every single dps in the raid will be doing 43% more threat as well. They baked in salv, so the balance comes out the same. 30k threat from 10k damage seems like a ton, but in the past the dps was only doing 4.5k threat from that same 10k damage anyway. The ratio hasn't changed any, when it comes to the baseline threat modifiers.
Now, the increased threat overall, from more damage and better abilities, seems to fall in line with Blizzard realizing that the "win Omen" minigame really doesn't bring much to the table in terms of fun. The game lacks tanks as it is, so penalizing undergeared tanks by making it hard for their well geared dps friends to run with them doesn't help things at all. Blizzard can still tweak the threat challenge on encounters the same way it always has, with threat wipes and knockbacks, but the old days where pugging was a nightmare either because the tank didn't generate enough threat or the dps did too much seem to be behind us, and that is a really good thing.
09/18/08, 8:16 AM
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