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04/20/08, 1:47 AM
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#1321
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Mitt Romney?
Blood Elf Priest
Mal'Ganis
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I can see doing that if you want a 20/41/0 or some kind of hybrid holy/prot spec that allows you to heal better. That would be the case if you never, ever MT'ed and primarly just served as a trash tank who switches to heal on bosses. I can't advocate doing that for any other reason though, the 5% straight avoidance vs bosses is just too big.
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04/20/08, 2:03 AM
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#1322
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by ederick
I can't see dropping deflection as being a good move. 5% complete physical avoidance for 5% block seems pretty bad. The extra threat just isn't worth it. Especially when you consider you'll get slightly more threat from the swing timer haste after parrying.
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I have been trying to reduce my avoidance in favor of blocking since our group has been running ZA. I am probably spoiled by excellent healing though. I feel like my character works better when I block a hit than when I avoid it. I generate threat from Holy Shield, mana from taking damage and allow Reckoning a chance to proc. With Holy Shield up I am currently blocking around 70% of incomming hits and dodging, parrying and being missed by about 30%. A strong player in my group frowns upon my build and gear choice, but we clear the third timed event consistently in t4/za/badge gear so it cant be that terrible. My threat is outstanding and I consistently contribute 420+ dps over the course of the instance in a tanking role.
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I can see doing that if you want a 20/41/0 or some kind of hybrid holy/prot spec that allows you to heal better. That would be the case if you never, ever MT'ed and primarly just served as a trash tank who switches to heal on bosses. I can't advocate doing that for any other reason though, the 5% straight avoidance vs bosses is just too big.
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The only boss in Zul'Aman that I do not tank directly is Jan'alai.
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04/20/08, 3:56 AM
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#1323
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Glass Joe
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I have been trying to reduce my avoidance in favor of blocking since our group has been running ZA. I am probably spoiled by excellent healing though. I feel like my character works better when I block a hit than when I avoid it. I generate threat from Holy Shield, mana from taking damage and allow Reckoning a chance to proc. With Holy Shield up I am currently blocking around 70% of incomming hits and dodging, parrying and being missed by about 30%. A strong player in my group frowns upon my build and gear choice, but we clear the third timed event consistently in t4/za/badge gear so it cant be that terrible. My threat is outstanding and I consistently contribute 420+ dps over the course of the instance in a tanking role.
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This is actually quite viable, as the more dodge and parry you acquire the more block you push, providing you have a lot of block value... I often find myself eliminating a large scale of avoidance gear, and find myself at about 750 block value, and uncrushable without holy shield up, with that being the case, running anything Kara and below is significantly easier. Technically it's rougher on the healer, but in comparison to how boring it is to heal a full avoidance tank in kara, it actually balances out your threat to damage intake, as well as the healers boredom to doing something role.
Personally, I advise to any tank, always keep a nice set of shield block / block value gear on the side, because as you progress, the line of zones you pass (Kara to gruul, gruul to mag, mag to ssc, etc) will increase, so eventually you'll be digging out old gear to run SSC/TK after your overgeared in your sunwell loot. That may be slightly exaggerated, none the less, I do advise doing something similar as downgrading is quite common if you do anything more than raid progression.
P.S. Stacking shield block high enough to push uncrushable without holy shield also eliminates that ever painful "second gap" with holy shield, as it's no longer required. That being the case, I find tanking lower end raid instances substantially easier altogether.
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04/20/08, 12:15 PM
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#1324
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Jaedenar (EU)
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Stacking shield block high enough to push uncrushable without holy shield also eliminates that ever painful "second gap" with holy shield, as it's no longer required.
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Regardless of loosing out on a lot of TPS by not using HS, I'm pretty sure the gear to become passive crush immune as a paladin without major trade offs (gemming for dodge/defense, using Figurine of the Colossus, etc) does not exist.
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04/20/08, 12:18 PM
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#1325
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Disharmonious
Dwarf Paladin
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by Dragonwing
This is actually quite viable, as the more dodge and parry you acquire the more block you push, providing you have a lot of block value... I often find myself eliminating a large scale of avoidance gear, and find myself at about 750 block value, and uncrushable without holy shield up, with that being the case, running anything Kara and below is significantly easier. Technically it's rougher on the healer, but in comparison to how boring it is to heal a full avoidance tank in kara, it actually balances out your threat to damage intake, as well as the healers boredom to doing something role.
Personally, I advise to any tank, always keep a nice set of shield block / block value gear on the side, because as you progress, the line of zones you pass (Kara to gruul, gruul to mag, mag to ssc, etc) will increase, so eventually you'll be digging out old gear to run SSC/TK after your overgeared in your sunwell loot. That may be slightly exaggerated, none the less, I do advise doing something similar as downgrading is quite common if you do anything more than raid progression.
P.S. Stacking shield block high enough to push uncrushable without holy shield also eliminates that ever painful "second gap" with holy shield, as it's no longer required. That being the case, I find tanking lower end raid instances substantially easier altogether.
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I could not disagree with you more about avoidance-gear being easier to heal than a more block heavy set. If you mean technically they need to heal more often, or have to return more total HP to you that's one thing, but I can't recall the last time outside of extreme circumstances where steady incoming damage killed me. Bursts after avoidance kill me trivially three times as often, because the healers slack off more (this isn't their fault, it's hard to keep pre-loading heals and canceling them for extended periods, the temptation is to offheal). I avoid to save healer mana and these days healers are drowning in it.
I also disagree with the person who thought dropping deflection is a good idea. While I concede that steadier incoming damage is a great thing to have, there is enough nasty spike damage, and the Deflection value is actually more than 1% avoidance per point (considerably, since it is an increasing scale). So the general solution is to use a lot of block rating gear with decent amount of block value, removing parry/dodge from other pieces. This makes a hell of a drastic difference in the incoming damage curve, and has the only downside of something like HSH not taking near enough damage to maintain threat.
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Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
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04/20/08, 10:13 PM
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#1326
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Glass Joe
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Although both of your points are entirely valid. I'm speaking on a "lower" end tank sight. For raiding yes, doing something as such would be quite unorthodox; however, in something like a normal or heroic dungeon, it keeps consistent damage input as to expend more TPS.
In regards to becoming passively uncrushable, I by no means have any particular set for gemming or enchanting as such in order to acquire that particular stat. I do tend to gem in the enduring talasite / regal nightseye direction a lot for socket bonuses, so that might contribute some, All I do is stack a lot of shield block, and put on a couple high avoidance pieces, right now i'm 2% over crushing without holy shield up. It's doable, but yes I do a lot of gear backtracking (Kara and such) in order to do so.
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04/21/08, 1:07 AM
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#1327
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Still Bald Bull
Human Paladin
Earthen Ring
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Originally Posted by Dragonwing
In regards to becoming passively uncrushable, I by no means have any particular set for gemming or enchanting as such in order to acquire that particular stat. I do tend to gem in the enduring talasite / regal nightseye direction a lot for socket bonuses, so that might contribute some, All I do is stack a lot of shield block, and put on a couple high avoidance pieces, right now i'm 2% over crushing without holy shield up. It's doable, but yes I do a lot of gear backtracking (Kara and such) in order to do so.
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Mind logging out in that gear set? I'd really be interested in seeing it.
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My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
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04/21/08, 2:19 AM
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#1328
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Prinsesa
You also might want to add this macro, which will accurately display your current avoidance total. Put it on a button, activate Holy Shield then push that button to determine if you're uncrushable or not:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(G etCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)
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Is there a way to put something in that script to factor in redoubt? Or is it already figured in and im missing something?
Thanks
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04/21/08, 3:16 AM
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#1329
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Death Knight
Ner'zhul (EU)
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Originally Posted by Varthan
Is there a way to put something in that script to factor in redoubt? Or is it already figured in and im missing something?
Thanks
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When Redoubt procs GetBlockChance() will get the value including the 30%
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04/21/08, 3:20 AM
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#1330
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Glass Joe
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What i meant was a way to pre factor in redoubt? Since you cannot proc it on command(ie Holy Shield).
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04/21/08, 3:22 AM
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#1331
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
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Originally Posted by Varthan
What i meant was a way to pre factor in redoubt? Since you cannot proc it on command(ie Holy Shield).
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I think adding 30% would be quite a good idea.
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04/21/08, 3:30 AM
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#1332
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Echo Isles
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What i meant was a way to pre factor in redoubt? Since you cannot proc it on command(ie Holy Shield).
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Just adding a straight 30% to the result should give you an accurate result.
I'm not particularly sure if this would work as a modification of the script, but:
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combined avoidance. Currently at:",0.8,0.8,1)
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance() +30+GetParryChance()+5+(G etCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)*150/355 + 20)*0.04,1,0.5,0)
May I ask why you want to factor this in? Redoubt is notoriously unreliable - it only procs on damaging attacks (meaning pure avoidance can cripple the proc rate, like Reckoning), does not benefit from the Holy Shield libram, does not generate extra threat, and will generally never go off when you most need it.
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04/21/08, 11:32 AM
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#1333
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Jaedenar (EU)
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Originally Posted by Dragonwing
All I do is stack a lot of shield block, and put on a couple high avoidance pieces, right now i'm 2% over crushing without holy shield up. It's doable, but yes I do a lot of gear backtracking (Kara and such) in order to do so.
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Would you be so kind to log out in that set tonight? I'd be very interested to see it.
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04/21/08, 11:45 AM
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#1334
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Disharmonious
Dwarf Paladin
Lightbringer
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Thirding (?) a request for that set. I managed to get myself within 4% of passive unbuffed, using some extremely unorthodox items (suneater w/ 20 agl, for example), no real gems or the like pushing me there, but I think I'd like a true passive uncrushable to futz around in.
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Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
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04/21/08, 12:18 PM
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#1335
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Glass Joe
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I generally don't find myself online until about raiding time, but I will be more than happy to after were done for the night. So be sure to armory me tomorrow morning, or late tonight.
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