Protection and you! - Page 9

• Chicken · 10/25/07, 6:09 AM

I double checked what Nal said myself by browsing through a couple of WWS logs from Horde guilds that use Ret Paladins (Blood Legion and Celebrity are two), and none of those have any Judgement of Blood resists in there either. I only browsed through about 200 Judgements worth though, and there's obviously the chance it's based on melee hit, but I assume it's correct for now since the original report came from a Prot Paladin.

Also double checked to make sure it isn't the same bug as Holy Shield and Greater Blessing of Sanctuary have (Both of those show as "<player> resists <mob>'s <ability>" despite being used by you), so it seems Judgement of Blood is indeed incapable of resisting in PvE situations.

Tyvi · 10/25/07, 6:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sarkan-ZdC

@ Liar, you sure with Demo-Shout? Cause 50 Threat on 5 Targets would just be nothing.. Even just activation of our Seal does (according to this test) 120 Threat so this would be more than twice of Demo-Shout.

Yeah, the low Demo Shout threat is intended. Before it was used to tank AoE packs by having a Warrior spam Demo Shout for a while, then let the AoErs open up and they would not pull aggro.
Nowadays tanks use Demo for the -AP debuff and to make mobs that someone else bodypulled attack you.

kalbear · 10/25/07, 1:34 PM

It's more complicated than that, but I'm pretty sure your premise is faulty.

No, you're right. Reckoning procs are dependent on how often you're hit for damage and that's both gear and mob dependent. I was taking a shorthand, basically saying that over time, all things being equal you're going to proc reckoning about 10% of the time, but that's obviously simplified.

For it to be 10%, it means you need to trigger reckoning for 8 seconds every 80 seconds. That's likely too low. Triggering it constantly would double your white damage and your SoR damage, but that's equally unlikely to happen against a single boss and with the kind of avoidance/mitigation you're likely to have.

I'll see if I can do a quickie calculator on what the likely proc rate is and what the overall threat increase is relative to other abilities. My suspicion is that the threat produced by white damage is small relative to overall damage, and even the threat produced by white +SoR is not that great on the whole scheme of things. On fast-hitting bosses this might be better for producing threat, but the question is whether more threat production is the real important factor for protection paladins instead of better mitigation and hit points.

Lazareth · 10/25/07, 6:03 PM

Leotheras Kill
Another
Lurker Below

Based on these three reports (Picked 2xLeotheras due to his attack speed), you can see in my buff list that Reckoning procced an average of 9 times. Did further research and found that in some fights, Reckoning procced as little as 5 times. Imo it's worth dropping, as it doesn't really seem to add much. I push between 900 and 1100 TPS consistently (more with wings up). Threat isn't an issue to me, and dropping Reckoning will hardly take much out of my threat.

Fiola · 10/25/07, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by Lazareth

Leotheras Kill
Another
Lurker Below

Based on these three reports (Picked 2xLeotheras due to his attack speed), you can see in my buff list that Reckoning procced an average of 9 times. Did further research and found that in some fights, Reckoning procced as little as 5 times. Imo it's worth dropping, as it doesn't really seem to add much. I push between 900 and 1100 TPS consistently (more with wings up). Threat isn't an issue to me, and dropping Reckoning will hardly take much out of my threat.

Would WWS be able to track refreshed reckoning procs though?

ie: Reckoning procs, 6 seconds later, Reckoning procs again and resets Reckoning timer.

kalbear · 10/25/07, 7:34 PM

This is all taken from the Lurker Below stats.

I guess the more important point to me from those stats is that 22% of the damage done was white damage, another 19% was SoR damage. And reckoning procced 10 times in that fight, but there were only 32 extra swings from reckoning recorded. (that's independent of whether it recorded a reckoning proc) Out of 284 melee hits, 32 were reckoning - or about 11.2% more swings. Again roughly, 11.2% of the 41% from SoR and melee means that reckoning caused about 4.61% of the overall damage - which is lower than the 5% boost to damage. However, threat isn't damage, so we need to reduce that.

Hmm, let's take that a bit further.
22% * 1.0 + 19% * 1.9 = 56.1 total non-normalized threat from melee/SoR.
22% * 1.0 + 74% * 1.9 = 140.6 total non-normalized threat from sources that would get the 5% bonus (basically, everything that wasn't nature damage)

11.2% of the 56.1 = 6.32 threat from melee/SoR that was extra from reckoning
140.6 * 5% = 7.03 threat from all sources given a bonus of 1hws

From this, it looks like reckoning does not outperform 1hws in overall threat produced. Now, keep in mind I didn't reduce the reckoning damage by 5% from the loss of 1hws, and I didn't take out the reckoning damage from the total, so these things are slightly off - but at the very least it should be comparable.

PsiVen · 10/25/07, 7:56 PM

I was kinda lumping the "Warriors have over double our Block Value" and "Warriors have more flat% reduction" together, but Illidan's main-hand hits for ~24k before armor and %reduction results in ~600 difference, combined with ~300 more block value that warriors have... it adds up.

Double our block value? 300 more? Under what circumstances do you have <300 BV? I have 457 in pure stamina gear and the warriors in my guild certainly don't have 750-900 in theirs.

If you're referring to stacking for Shear, that's a fairly unique situation that I could understand results in some gimped stats. But as a generalization, "warriors have way more block value" is ludicrous. We have the same talents and fairly similar itemization in that area.

Gromweld · 10/25/07, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by PsiVen

Double our block value? 300 more? Under what circumstances do you have <300 BV? I have 457 in pure stamina gear and the warriors in my guild certainly don't have 750-900 in theirs.

If you're referring to stacking for Shear, that's a fairly unique situation that I could understand results in some gimped stats. But as a generalization, "warriors have way more block value" is ludicrous. We have the same talents and fairly similar itemization in that area.

...you know, I had never actually gone through the parses for exactly how much our warriors block for in "normal" tanking gear. I was basing my numbers off of a comment from our MT about having a "threat" set that gets his Block Value past 700. Since Block Value is a much more important threat-generation stat for Warriors I figured that wasn't much higher than his normal.

Yet again I stand corrected - I block for 420 in my high-avoidance gear, where our MT blocks for 441.

So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.

galzohar · 10/25/07, 8:49 PM

Let's say you lose 1s, so 10% of the time your holy shield is off because of mistiming. 15% of those times would be crushes that deal 1.5x damage. So basically on the whole fight you take 0.75% more damage due to the 1s delay between holy shields. It's actually a little more since a crush is more than 1.5x of a block but not that much. Now if you reduce the delay to 0.5s you get 1/2 the effect, and on top you'd need to reduce the times when redoubt covered for that hole. Overall total damage taken should be insignificantly bigger, the only problem I would see is with the (vert) rare spike damage, as no matter how rare it is all it needs is to make your HP hit 0 *once* and you're dead. But I really don't see how it can account for "needing more healing" as the extra total healing needed is really nothing.

crimsonsentinel · 10/25/07, 9:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gromweld

...you know, I had never actually gone through the parses for exactly how much our warriors block for in "normal" tanking gear. I was basing my numbers off of a comment from our MT about having a "threat" set that gets his Block Value past 700. Since Block Value is a much more important threat-generation stat for Warriors I figured that wasn't much higher than his normal.

Yet again I stand corrected - I block for 420 in my high-avoidance gear, where our MT blocks for 441.

So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.

I can't find where your warrior MT'ed illidan in those parses, so I can't make a direct comparison. However, when you say you're much harder to heal, is just the healers complaining or is there numerical evidence for it? Because it could just be in their heads =P

PsiVen · 10/25/07, 10:27 PM

I'm sure it's harder to heal someone with 1500~ less HP regardless of small amounts of mitigation. Also in current armoried gear there's a difference of about 7% dodge, and our healers definitely noticed such a difference (about 6% dodge) when we changed tanks around on Illidan.

Drfeelgood · 10/26/07, 1:42 PM

I just tested out JoB on a rogue friend. 3 times used, zero resists while cloak of shadows. Not conclusive evidence but with a 90% chance to resist, you'd think one of them would. Will test more later...seems opening with JoB is going to be my new thing.

Twinky · 10/26/07, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gromweld

So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.

As I know this happens, that small chance of rolling in that 15% crush area when encountering this is small, as the person said above redoubt can fill the whole you can dodge/miss/parry the attack in that second or the boss' swing timer can simply not be back up in that .5 second.

Although I can't say this about the warriors in other guilds the ones in mine will get crushed on average ~4-5 times a fight (whether that's from laziness or somthing else I'm not sure) but I can say I've gone complete clears MT'ing and never getting crushed, so that 'extra' dmg certainly cannot be solely contributed to the CD/Duration of Holy shield.

Fiola · 10/26/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Drfeelgood

I just tested out JoB on a rogue friend. 3 times used, zero resists while cloak of shadows. Not conclusive evidence but with a 90% chance to resist, you'd think one of them would. Will test more later...seems opening with JoB is going to be my new thing.

Well, assuming 5% base miss chance (and no +spell hit gear on your part), a rogue with CloS should have a 95% chance to resist spells.

If JoBs could be resisted (and were based off of +spell hit), the chances of 3 hits with that resist rate would be 5% ^ 3, or ~.01%.

Combined with the experience/WWS of raiding BElf paladins, I think that the evidence shows JoB is guaranteed to hit (no resist check, like debuff judgements). That's nice.

galzohar · 10/26/07, 3:41 PM

Not that it matters for JoB, but spell base miss against someone your level is 4%. Against mobs 1 level above you 5%, 2 levels above you 6% and 3 levels above you or "boss" level mobs 17% (and IIRC every additional level is another 11% base miss). I remember the spell miss against higher levels is different against players, although against equal level the base miss should be the same as against mobs of equal level - 4%.