◊ Cathela

Is there a firsthand source for this?

My only personal experience dealing with this has been learning Kalecgos, which involves a lot of taunting of level 73 mobs. About halfway through our learning process I started gearing for about +7% hit, where previously I'd had none. I didn't keep records of taunts and resists (in retrospect I wish I had) but it sure felt like the gear change reduced the number of resists to a tiny fraction of what they'd been before. Anecdotal of course, but it sure felt a lot more like a 9% base resist rate than a 17% rate (and you'd expect to notice the difference between 2% and 10% resist rates).

So anyway, I'd really like to see hard evidence before I believe that taunts use the spell table.

I agree 8% makes a lot of sense if it's a 17% base, but there's no rule saying it has to be a magic number that precisely fills some gap, and it's certainly possible that the people who design glyphs aren't that well-informed about the precise mechanics of the class. (They gave us a glyph to reduce the cooldown on Turn Evil, remember?)

If someone wanted to do a test on live, the best way to do it would be to spec out of Precision (just to remove any ambiguity about whether it affects taunt or not), and then get +8% hit and test it on a skull mob. It shouldn't take too long to see the difference between a 1% resist rate and a 9% rate.

What would be the best/easiest mob to use for this?

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

GSH

I remember seeing it in an old EJ thread. I think what the testing showed was that bosses which needed to be taunted as part of the fight such as Nalorakk were more susceptible to Taunt than other bosses. I believe the testing was done on old ZG bosses. I think they determined that Venoxis (Snake) had a 17% miss chance, but Nalorakk only had 9% or so.

Edit: Here we go: 2.3: Miss rate vs Boss mobs?

 

◊ Oggie

My search-fu is failing, but didn't someone actually do that on the 2nd boss in ZA? If memory serves they came up with 'affected by +hit (melee) but seems to be greater than 9%'. I wouldn't be overly surprised if it was 17% normally, there's certainly something weird on Brut's taunt table and I have 'felt' (pure anecdotally) that there's something funky on Kalec too sometimes.

If you do go out and test this, mind testing with a warrior? JoL should keep you both going strong for most of it, and with enough test data we can also see if they work the same.

I am also kind of curious if it's possible that precision is double dipping for taunt resists- 3% melee (added in a patch note) but also 3% from spells (never removed, since +spellhit was how you used to decrease taunt resist for warriors/druids/pallies till....2.3?).

Could be some really interesting data.

 

◊ Cathela

Ah, okay. That does seem pretty rigorous. And it would make sense for Kalecgos to be a special case (since it's such a taunt-heavy fight), which would explain my experience.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

◊ Oggie

Obviously we don't know how the spellhit table will work in wotlk, but with that 1% totally removed, it'll probably become a lot more of very, very active interest.

Edit:
Not the least of which is warriors/druids/Dks don't seem to have the same, which lets pallies taunt hit cap comically easy compared to all others.

 

• Chicken

Glyph of Taunt - Item - World of Warcraft
Glyph of Growl - Item - World of Warcraft
Glyph of Dark Command - Item - World of Warcraft

All four tanking classes have a glyph for it now. Precision has also been removed, so we can't double dip on that either.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ Cathela

Oh, has it been confirmed that both spell and melee hit apply to taunts?

(I guess I really don't have a clue what my Kalecgos impressions mean.)

-----

In another vein, all damage seals except SoR got about a 20% nerf in the new beta patch. I think this probably brings SoV and SoR fairly close in terms of damage/threat, and we might be at the point where which one is better depends on Reckoning. I'll do the math a bit later today.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

bellator

Completely anecdotal, and statistically insignificant atm, but so far (with taunt glyph and next to no +hit), I have probably used taunt on bosses 20-25 times (gluth, anub and 4hm). I have yet to see a resist. Will keep doing naxx and keep taunting and let you know if i see one

 

◊ Oggie

To be fair, my concept of the double dipping came from inside my crazy, crazy head and have about as much proof as anything not supported by anything other source than one single person absently noting something.

It makes a 'sort of' logical sense and vaguely explains some differences in taunting resists with my other tanks when I know the level of +hit I run with and the +hit they run with, but it was intended much more as 'something to test since you're testing stuff anyway' rather than 'something known'.

Those other glyphs I had no idea existed, thank you.

 

Halion

You mention raid bosses, have you had any taunt resists on anything (instance trash / world mobs / etc)?

 

bellator

Honestly I couldnt say. I've paid little attention to it, and AoE tanking is so effect anything that happens to break loose is on the verge of death. I've not noticed any mobs wandering around which i thought should be on their way back to me, but there could have been resists. Planning a full naxx in next couple days so will be more observant and try to keep a combat log open of all my resists to see if anything pops up.

 

Joasuf

A question for the beta testers on professions.

At present im a prot/holy hybrid (I typically switch between specs 3-4 times a week for raiding) and have alchemy for the healing trinket and enchanting for the +heal/stats/damage on rings.

I am thinking of going prot full time in wotlk and was wondering what the best profession combination is at present? If anyone has looked into this your feedback would be much appreciated.

 

Halion

The WotLK profession thread

Dig through this, more or less everything regarding professions is in there.


General consensus is Blacksmithing (for the 2 sockets) and Leatherworking (for the fur lining). If it turns out that there are stacking issues with the BS bracer socket and the LW fur lining to bracer, then this will obviously change. I'm not going to speculate what combos will be best if stacking issues arise.


Edit: Here's a post I did about Prot professions.

The WotLK profession thread Page 33

There's some other tank related posts in there if you really feel like digging.

2nd Edit: Here's Maintankadin's thread as well.

Maintankadin :: View topic - So, which professions are you taking for WotLK?

The initial info is a little dated now, but the later posts are ok.

 

Joasuf

Thanks for the answer Halion I missed both those threads before. Having read the first 20 pages of the EJ thread and then your post and the maintankadin one, it looks like Jewelcrafting/Blacksmithing to me.

It seems counter intuitive that you will be able to fur line plate armor, whilst Blacksmithing/Jewelcrafting will potentially give you some nice items to kick off level 80 raiding on top of the stat bonuses they will provide. But yes you are completely right its speculation at this point however I will start to stockpile mats for a quick profession change which looks likely.

 

PsiVen

For those interested in our DPS, I've updated the spreadsheet.

Note that our DPS is around 1450 (at 80). Comments from Ghostcrawler regarding warriors seem to indicate that this will be going up substantially. Good news as this hopefully means our extreme threat modifiers will be reconsidered so that we can kill things again.
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Crunch time, simple but vital questions.

 

◊ Cathela

From what I've read/seen, my understanding is that the extra sockets don't interfere with enchants. (They'd be largely useless if they did).

What's counterintuitive about some soft smooth fur lining on the inside of your hard, cold metal bracers? In all seriousness, the new theme for professions seems to be that the perks are supposed to be useful to all classes. So LW perks work for plate classes, BS perks (extra sockets) work for cloth/leather classes, etc.


That's good. Certainly 312%-BV SotR was too much, but it was a very nice feeling to have decent dps for once. Giving us "acceptable" raid dps, (75% of a Ret paladin or thereabouts) will do a lot to reduce the "we don't need you to tank here, so go sit out" phenomenon.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Tilted

That's where a buff to HotR could fit in nicely. It would buff our pre-75 TPS, as well as give us something to do when not getting punched in the face.

Ultimately it would be nice to be able to choose between healing or DPS when we're not called on to tank something. TbtL should be a great addition for the offhealer role, but damage is still a concern. FWIW I do about 350ish DPS on live and about 650 on PTR (this was before the most recent SoV nerf so it's probably a bit lower now). This is one hell of a boost to DPS, but still substantially lower of what it should be if they want us at DK/druid levels.

 

• frmorrison

I think they are balancing dps classes between 3000 to 4000 dps, so a tank doing 2000 dps seems alright. Once Hammer gets buffed (so Prot wants "tank" weapons), that should close to the gap to help reach that additional 500 dps.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

bellator

Personally from this thread I got the impression that the dps they are aiming for is around 2500:-

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Not possible to leave Ret paladin feedback

There was aslo blue post in the warrior section which can be seen here, that indiactes they are trying to get prot dps to be only 15-20% lower than normal dps dps.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Is prot doing too much DPS or is it right on?

 

Halion

Our Feral and Warrior friends are getting a further buff to their AOE tanking.

From GC:

I have no issue with all 4 tanks being solid AOE tanks, as many have said, taking away our AOE throne allows us to demand equal footing as a main tank, a win-win for all the tanks.

The only concern I have is the mitigation of unlimited Thunderclap, will warriors be the kings of AOE mitigation now? It was already leaning this way with shield block having no charges.

There is still hope though, again GC:

 

Russta

Here's hoping we do actually get something to compensate. Saying Consecrate will still do slightly more threat as a way to compensate for the fact that Thunder Clap immediately puts a 20% attack speed penalty on everything is utterly ridiculous.

 

Exewut

Eh you forgot to quote the important part though:

This proves that they've been keeping aoe threat into consideration when they balanced mitigation. I guess they noticed that being a trash tank isn't all what it's cracked up to be and are fixing this situation now. Let's just see how the changes play out now.

 

Dragonwing

Slightly off the current topic. but i'm curious to see if anybody has done any number crunching on beta with the new available talents.

I unfortunately don't have beta, but have been looking at the different options. and there seems to be an early cookie cutter prot build that could vary depending on what your looking for.

The talents i'm looking at specifically are

Touched by the light
conviction
sanctified seals
seals of the pure
one hand spec
reckoning

For the most part, you can fill up your talent tree with none of these- and kind of look back with about about 10 points, depending on what build your looking at. I'm curious to see the difference in pure damage increases over in comparison to the increase by buffing crit. Anybody done crunching with it?

 

Wrathblood

Exewut,

I'm less optimistic. I mean, Naxx basically equals Kara, right? Paladins were MTing Kara back even when tankadins sucked pre-2.2. So, telling us that we'll at least be equal to where we were pre-2.2 isn't exactly comforting.

The way talents are working out, it kinda feels like we're back to where we were pre-2.2 (substandard health, mitigation and avoidance, but boatloads of threat) EXCEPT that our status as the best AoE tanks is now in question AND the value of our "new" main ability, generating tons of threat (compared to warriors at least), is something Blizz has openly said its working to make less important.

I was willing to tank in BC (and fought my way up to MTing despite being arguably underpowered for it), because I took solace in the unique strengths a tankadins brought to the table (harder to crush/kings of AoE tanking/superior threat vs demons/undead). For WotLK, I recognize where we are underpowered, but I no longer feel like we've got a niche to call our own. I'll keep tanking until someone makes me stop, but I feel a little adrift.

 

• Smithist

Have you not been reading this thread at all? Determining expected dps/tps values has been one of the primary topics of Wrath discussion. PsiVen, as well as many others, have posted tons of info regarding this. Here is a link to PsiVen's post ranking weapons for Wrath(follow his link to Maintankadin). The maintankadin page linked is updated and gives you an idea of what to expect based on the current build.