I took a crack at modeling Seal/Judgement of Righteousness on PsiVen's sheet, including SoR damage on HotR hits. I did most of this when I'd been drinking, so let me know if this makes any sense.

On the Num tab I added the following lines:

	A	B	C	D	E	F
19	SoR	0.028	0.055			1
20	JoR	0.250	0.400			1

And on the ability tab, I filled in the SoR, SoR procs from HotR, and JoR columns with the following (starting from Row 4):

I'm a little bit confused about the 1.12 modifier in the SoV and JoV rows, on the Num tab. What do those represent? Is there any other sort of comparable modifier I'd need to include for the SoR rows? If you exclude that modifier column, then SoR with very slow weapons seems to be producing comparable single-target threat to SoV (though SoV remains weapon speed agnostic, which is nice).

Disregard, I'm an idiot.

Not sure if this has been brought up but with the changes to gear coming up pre-level 80, I was wondering people's opinion's on;

Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian

vs.

Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate

I can see the Dodge factor coming in but if we're moving more into the realm of warrior style DPS alongside the Spell power + Str + AP if the Hit rating on the SPB might come in more handy as an upgrade at the expense of a handful of Stamina?

After spending all weekend on the PTR, I'd like to ask: Do you think Righteous Fury's "Holy damage only" threat is something worth looking into?

I ask this because a 90 DPS one-hander with 1000 AP is a pretty sizable chunk of white damage now, but doesn't get the modifier at all. It seems to me that this is a missed opportunity, particularly in the realm of making real DPS weapons better than spell power weapons without necessarily buffing HOTR yet again.

I suppose part of the reason I'm also worried about this is that Blizzard doesn't want Shockwave to the be-all, end-all AOE tanking skill for Warriors because it's something available to Protection only, yet almost everything that justifies using a tanking weapon is hinging solely on HOTR.

Theras: Apologies for the poor formatting I'll have to look into organizing things more logically. The 1.12 modifier is 4/5 Seals of the Pure which I was using for my baseline spec at the time.

Re RF affecting white damage: That sounds to me like a pretty good idea.

I think the original idea behind the holy-only restriction on RF was to fit in to the paladin role as the magic-damage tank as distinct from the physical-damage tanks. And that made sense for vanilla and BC when we scaled with spellpower, etc. But in WotLK there's definitely a more physical feel to paladin tanking, so that distinction is blurred anyway. And it would definitely fix this whole why-use-a-physical-weapon thing.

Unless your guild is pushing towards a major milestone (finishing a raid instance, etc) between now and WotLK, you're basically talking about leveling gear here, and the SPB wins for damage/threat output. There's nothing that challenges your survivability until heroics.

I don't think this has been posted yet and its been in this build for a while, but does vigilance stack with blessing of sanctuary?

Not been tested that I know of, but I highly, highly doubt they stack.

RF affects white damage output already, this change happened with the 'baked in salvation' announcement. I'm pretty sure this has been said already in this thread but I can't find it.

WotLK Some paladin threat values - TankSpot

(he had +2% threat enchant on his gloves)

Probably not overpowered, but it's really not necessary. It's a nice bit of mitigation for AoE situations, but it's only really crucial against bosses, and JotJ functions just fine in that situation. Adding it to Consecration would really just further erode the distinction between paladins and warriors as tanks, which is getting a little thin already.

Right, but only the baked-in salv part affects it, so it doesn't change the proportional amount of threat that white damage does. White damage gets +43% threat, and Holy damage now gets +171% threat, which puts you right back where you started since your dps are also now producing +43% threat.

What Prinsea is suggesting is making the +90% threat modifier affect white damage as well, which would make white damage a larger fraction of our threat.

There's really no reason why they shouldn't. Vigilance reduces threat by 10%, so you would very rarely want to use it.

I know this has been thrown around on the Beta boards, but how about a % of weapon damage-to-holy on every hit, other than SoR (since SoR is speed, not damage based...IIRC)

I agree with your sentiment, but am confused by something you said. I was only finding the 43% threat while in "tank" forms (RF, Def Stance, Bear form). In all other cases, I was doing threat at the normal 100% (not in tank form) or less if I had a class built in threat reduction. None of them seemed to reflect a +43% though on the DPS side of things.

It wouldn't really be a baked in salv if everyone got the 1.43 multiplier. For that to work, tanks would have it and dps/healers would not.

Never mind, misread. Please ignore.

Yes, it's a built in side effect of the "tank" forms you're mentioning, it doesn't affect people who aren't tanks that way while still giving tanks the benefit of having "Blessing of Salvation" on their DPS (This time the difference just being expressed by making the tanks generate more threat, instead of the DPS generating less threat).

Anything else wouldn't make sense, which I'm pretty sure is why Cathela didn't specifically mention it.

Does anyone else think the baked in Salvation needs to be removed again? It really feels like they fixed the removal of it twice with the buffed tank threat and baking it in to all threat "stances".

I'm all for being able to hold aggro but we're at the point where there's little reason to gear/spec for threat and some classes are actually skipping their threat reduction talents because why bother if noone's getting past 50% threat?

That's my thought pretty much as well, speaking as a person that's been tanking as a Protection Paladin since TBC's release. It was basically the same at the time: I used to be surprised at people thinking they needed more than the 161 spell damage you'd get from a spell damage enchanted level 70 blue. As the game progressed however, staying ahead of DPS got harder and harder. This is just the same thing all over again.

I think what the issue was I might be misreading Cathela's post. In it, he says that my dps are also getting the 43% extra threat. I think he means my personal dps, not the other DPS'ers. I read his statement as the DPS'ers would also get the 43%, and perhaps he simply means my dps.

It's just a little exaggerated now, but a Ret Paladin who didn't take any points in Fanaticism consistently pulled off me or was otherwise at 90%+ throughout a Kara run.

It's still possible to pull aggro even with all our threat.

Is this a kara run on beta at 80? Would the increased crit, reduced dodge of low level mobs effect the ret pala's dps more than a prot pala's threat? Combined with lack of fanaticism this could explain it.

From my runs through naxx etc, i've yet to see any dps class every get >50% of my threat on an individual mob.

What Cathela said on leveling gear vs. raid tankadin gear.

I'll throw [Chestplate of Stoicism] out there for raid tanking gear though, if that is your major concern. It is a significant mitigation upgade over the stoic guardian.

It's at most one per item. I'm still not sure whether they stack with enchants though.