With tank threat levels obscenely high, 10% should be easy to overcome. If they could stack, the warrior could toss it on the MT, which, if it was stackable w/ sanc, would cause the high end guilds to always use a warrior as an OT to get the buff.
While pushing warriors into a dedicated OT role is quite ironic, I don't see Blizzard doing it.
If that's an issue, it's an issue that's going to exist with or without BoSanct. If tanks can spare 10% of their threat (and at this point it seems like they can) then this is still going to be very useful for any encounter where you have two tanks including one prot warrior and no prot paladin.
If the devs really want to keep Vigilance from being used this way, it needs something more like an instant 5% reduction in total threat every time the Vigilance target gets hit, or something like that.
Originally Posted by jere
I think what the issue was I might be misreading Cathela's post. In it, he says that my dps are also getting the 43% extra threat. I think he means my personal dps, not the other DPS'ers. I read his statement as the DPS'ers would also get the 43%, and perhaps he simply means my dps.
What I meant (but didn't make clear) is that removing salv from the game means the DPS will be generating 43% more threat, so the 43% more threat you do on white damage just keeps you even for white-damage threat vs dps.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Is this a kara run on beta at 80? Would the increased crit, reduced dodge of low level mobs effect the ret pala's dps more than a prot pala's threat? Combined with lack of fanaticism this could explain it.
From my runs through naxx etc, i've yet to see any dps class every get >50% of my threat on an individual mob.
FWIW, I've run Kara now both as a ret paladin and a fire mage on the PTR at 70. Our tank was a warrior who I've known for quite some time and he's always been known as "the guy" when it comes to threat generation. I pulled aggro in both cases quite a few times, but never in sustained threat situations (EDIT: I was specced for threat reduction talents for both runs - Fanaticism as ret and Burning Soul on my mage) In general, damage is more bursty now, so it's easy to go on a crit streak and piss off the mobs more than you meant to. This is partially mitigated by things like Hand of Salvation and Intervene with percentage based threat reductions, but that's not always going to cut it. In a nutshell, threat reduction is still important in 3.0, but for different reasons than it is in live. I can only guess what it'll be like at 80, but it seems likely that trend will continue.
And yes, DPS scaling will very likely outpace threat scaling, but by far less than it did in TBC. Remember that our damage scales much better now than it did before, so an Icecrown tank will clearly out-threat a fresh 80 tanking Naxx.
So, thinking about Redoubt. How useful is the proc, really?
Assume we have a prot paladin who's at exactly the level of defense to be uncrittable. The hit table (vs a level 73 of course) then looks something like this:
10% miss
15% parry (including Deflection)
15% dodge (including Anticipation)
40% block (with Holy Shield up)
20% hit
Even at this very basic gear level, one-third of the extra 30% block chance provided by Redoubt is superfluous. If the paladin has a bit of extra avoidance on gear, or some basic raid buffs/debuffs active, the hit percentage is probably going to come down to 15% or lower, at which point only half of the blocking bonus is of any use. Further gearing-up is going to make it less and less useful; even with the diminishing returns on avoidance stats it's still not hard to see how the hit table could be filled up without Redoubt procs.
One could make the point that the Redoubt proc is much more useful if you're getting hit by a lot of attackers, in which case you're going to spend some time with Holy Shield used up and on cooldown, and in those situations the full 30% will give you some value. And that's true, but it's not a common situation, and it still doesn't make much of a difference in overall mitigation.
Maybe the devs intend for the proc to be a minor extra perk on top of the +30% static block value from the talent. And if that's the case then okay, fair enough. But I think they intend all parts of all talents to have some impact, and if they want the proc effect on Redoubt to mean anything, they really need to change it to have some other effect.
Personally I'd suggest that the proc effect be changed to something like +15% block chance and another +30% block value, or something of that nature. Our shield mechanics right now are pretty boring by comparison to Prot warriors, and a change like this would liven things up a bit.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Maybe the devs intend for the proc to be a minor extra perk on top of the +30% static block value from the talent. And if that's the case then okay, fair enough. But I think they intend all parts of all talents to have some impact, and if they want the proc effect on Redoubt to mean anything, they really need to change it to have some other effect.
That's pretty much how I view it now. We all asked for Redoubt to be unlinked from Shield Specialization being quite happy to just pretend the former doesn't exist while committing five less points to the latter that we wanted. Now we just get that five point prerequisite for free. Even if they don't change it, that's a pretty sweet deal.
I'm not sure I'd go with your suggestion of how to improve it. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just boring and we're crying out for some interesting talents that don't feel mandatory. It'd be nice to feel we aren't just "making do" for a change.
Personally I'd suggest that the proc effect be changed to something like +15% block chance and another +30% block value, or something of that nature. Our shield mechanics right now are pretty boring by comparison to Prot warriors, and a change like this would liven things up a bit.
Are you suggesting a flat increase to block chance of 15%? or have the talent add an additional 15% to Holy Shield?
If it's the former, then I think that option is just a little bit OP, as we'll never take a straight hit anymore. Obviously we'll still take significant damage because you can only stack block value so high, but still, we'll be mitigating EVERY attack.
If you intend the latter, then I'm not sure I like that idea much either. I like the current implementation of Redoubt, I like the when hit proc of increasing your block chance. It is/was really nice pre-3.0 as a way to often bridge the lag gap when refreshing HS. But as you said, it is very helpful for when you're tanking a large number of mobs and your HS charges are getting used up (i.e. MH, ZA, or even Prince in Kara). And if you still run heroics then it shines even more.
I understand your argument, and it definitely is not a must have talent, but I think that's exactly why they rolled it into the 30% BV talent. I guess I'm just saying that I like the talent, and don't really think it needs to be changed. Although I wouldn't mind seeing HS have a slightly higher chance to block percentage, since warriors get 75%. Of course I guess this doens't really matter as much anymore since bosses no longer crush so I'll just stop talking.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.
This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.
Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.
This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.
Ah, well that makes a whole lot more sense. I definitely support such a change.
Elemental Shaman: You're OOM. Enhancement Shaman: So are you.
I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.
This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.
But really, I'm just pointing out that out of the 30% block-rate buff you get from the talent, you're rarely going to actually benefit from more than half of it, so it'd be worthwhile to trade the other half for something else.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Hammer of the Righteous is now hitting for 4x Weapon DPS on the PTR/Beta, apparently.
I was personally hoping for 5x Weapon DPS to be the final incarnation, but oh well. 4x is still good.
It's probably intended to make it so that even WotLK spell power weapons are less attractive than WotLK melee weapons. It's now the case that WotLK epic spell power weapons are 2% better before the extra stats, which is close enough to call it a wash, especially as the melee weapon is more likely to also have some strength on it which would tip the scales in it's favor.
Also makes it that for blue and green quality weapons, an equal item level melee weapon is definitely always better.
Changing it to five times the weapon damage would make epic melee weapons better even before stats, but I'd say four times is a fine number.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I just need a double-check on my quick in-head math here. If I'm too cheap to buy a new enchant, and I possess a Cudgel of Consecration enchanted with +40 Spellpower, and a King's Defender with Mongoose (yes yes my gear is much worse than the standards of most Elitist Jerk posters, heh), I'll still be better off using the Cudgel during the 3.0 -> Wrath time period, correct? At least in terms of pure threat (and possibly otherwise, as I have a +15 Stamina gem in the Cudgel). However, I should be OK with the King's Defender if I decide the extra defensive stats on it are useful, assuming I'm running with other Badge/ZA/Kara geared DPS, also correct?
And then the last question, which I haven't seen asked yet: in 3.0 and in Wrath, will we still be best off with Wizard Oil, or would some more melee-oriented temporary enchant be better (sharpening stone, etc)?
Hey, I made the Tankadin (and Healadin) modules for Rawr. If you don't know what Rawr is, it is a dedicated Theorycrafting program to rank gear and buffs, you can try it out at Rawr - Home. I am in the process of updating the module for 3.0, and it is mostly done.
You might have used the current Tankadin module and saw that is was quite inaccurate, especially in regards to threat. This was because I was in middle of making the module when I quit WoW and was never finished and wasn't meant to be released. But I am back to my Pally for WotLK so I plan to keep it updated now.
It should be ready from when 3.0 comes out, the main thing that will be missing is that I do not plan to support procs for any level 70 gear. It is a bunch of extra work that will be useless a month later.
I am eager to hear any suggestions or comments you might have about it.
If I'm too cheap to buy a new enchant, and I possess a Cudgel of Consecration enchanted with +40 Spellpower, and a King's Defender with Mongoose (yes yes my gear is much worse than the standards of most Elitist Jerk posters, heh), I'll still be better off using the Cudgel during the 3.0 -> Wrath time period, correct?
....
And then the last question, which I haven't seen asked yet: in 3.0 and in Wrath, will we still be best off with Wizard Oil, or would some more melee-oriented temporary enchant be better (sharpening stone, etc)?
The threat difference between the [Cudgel of Consecration] and the [King's Defender] is going to be trivial in 3.0, even including the 40 spell power enchant on the Cudgel. We're talking on the order of 5-10 TPS difference, out of 1600+. That makes the King's Defender pretty much universally better for single target tanking, since it also has armor and defense rating, in addition to a more defensive-oriented enchant. You'll want to hang on to your Cudgel for AE tanking, though.
I'm also showing [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]s being roughly equal to [Superior Wizard Oil] in last night's patch in 1-3 target scenarios, with any more targets than that wizard oil winning out. However, it's worth pointing out that Wizard oil costs about a fifth what sharpening stones do on my realm, which makes the choice a little easier.
I'm also showing [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]s being roughly equal to [Superior Wizard Oil] in last night's patch in 1-3 target scenarios, with any more targets than that wizard oil winning out. However, it's worth pointing out that Wizard oil costs about a fifth what sharpening stones do on my realm, which makes the choice a little easier.
[Righteous Weapon Coating] is an interesting option as well now, I believe it works out to an average of 65 attack power or so, which should theoretically be better if I'm remembering my scaling numbers right. It also has the possibility to stack it with Avenging Wrath going for it. Of course it's only usable in SWP.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
[Righteous Weapon Coating] is an interesting option as well now, I believe it works out to an average of 65 attack power or so, which should theoretically be better if I'm remembering my scaling numbers right. It also has the possibility to stack it with Avenging Wrath going for it. Of course it's only usable in SWP.
You're right; Righteous Weapon Coating is straight up superior to both (even AE'ing), assuming a 45s cooldown between procs. My guild bank will be thrilled.
Well, there's no discussion going on in this thread about it, so...
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
We test a lot of different ways. We test characters alone, self buffed and raid buffed. We do very controlled tests and we do tests where we just tell a skilled player to go nuts and we do actual raids. We get a lot of information from outside Blizzard as well, but you asked about how we test.
It's difficult to know exactly when a tank is going to end using their cooldowns. Sometimes it's probably fine to spam them and other times they need to be saved for a very specific situation. Which abilities you use is also determined by what classes are present in the rest of your group. That's just another reason to gather a large body of data.
We think the paladin and warrior are pretty close now. I do have some concerns about eventual scaling problems now that block is so good. Critical Block may end up letting warriors bypass paladins eventually, but that will be a few raid tiers from now, so we'll have plenty of time to evaluate the situation and make adjustments if necessary.
You're still going to have a hard time convincing me that 2% mitigation difference will determine which class everyone uses for their MT. Consider:
1) You're going to have a hard time even knowing what that number is. Unless a few really eloquent theorycrafters manage to convince the entire raiding community, most of the time you're going to have to rely on actual raid data to make decisions, and that kind of variance is going to be really hard to detect.
2) Every boss is different. Mitigation deltas may be miniscule on a slow-hitting boss but noticeable on a fast-hitting boss for instance.
3) A difference likes 2% assumes both tanks have the best gear possible for their slot. Gear can make a very big difference in mitigation, yet you tend to see guilds stick with their MT for a long time. You don't suddenly drop your guy when someone with a better shield and 10% more mitigation comes along. Why? Because your guy's loyalty, dependability, knowledge or sense of humor is more important than that 10% difference.
4) Don't forget player skill has a huge role in here too. I've done Archimonde with an MT that couldn't stance dance to save his life. But despite that er... handicap, the group is on M'uru or something now. Yeah I know, everyone has antecdotes. The moral of my story is that if a tank who can't use his cooldowns can make it to Sunwell, surely the tank with 2% less mit can. If min-maxing tumped all, they would have dumped him.
5) Paladins and druid tanks are already tanking a lot of content in BC, and that's in spite of the current design (i.e. the BC version, not the LK one) that warriors are the best single boss tanks. And, in spite of things like crushing blows. And, in spite of the difficulties druids and paladins had getting gear. If they can tank already when they're supposed to be OTs, then they should probably be great when we are actively trying to make them MTs.
I already posted my thoughts on Maintankadin, and several people (including PsiVen) have posted in the original thread in an articulate and well thought out manner.
I'm rather disappointed that when the patch hits, my viability as a main tank will actually go DOWN (due to reduced HP from the STAM scaling nerf). Even the increase in block value won't really compensate (and that's not even using a comparison to the increased mitigation that Warriors are gaining). I'm really quite curious as to what kind of testing the devs are doing to only come up with a ~2% difference (2% in what, exactly? They certainly have more than 2% health and more than 2% mitigation over us).
Also, Ghostcrawler seems to be missing the point -- Paladins are main tanking in Sunwell right now in some guilds, but that doesn't mean that there's any good reason for them to do so. Prot Paladins want progression guilds to have a solid, mechanics-related reason to using a Paladin main tank, and there is currently no such reason to do so.
The threat difference between the [Cudgel of Consecration] and the [King's Defender] is going to be trivial in 3.0, even including the 40 spell power enchant on the Cudgel. We're talking on the order of 5-10 TPS difference, out of 1600+. That makes the King's Defender pretty much universally better for single target tanking, since it also has armor and defense rating, in addition to a more defensive-oriented enchant. You'll want to hang on to your Cudgel for AE tanking, though.
So, what about a weapon of this sort [Breeching Comet]? I heard slow weapons are better for HoR and haven't heard of it being normalized. I would prefer to use a traditional prot weapon like[The Unbreakable Will] but if slow weapons are noticeably better then so be it. Also, what is being speculated as our best weapon enchant come 3.0?
So, what about a weapon of this sort [Breeching Comet]? I heard slow weapons are better for HoR and haven't heard of it being normalized. I would prefer to use a traditional prot weapon like[The Unbreakable Will] but if slow weapons are noticeably better then so be it. Also, what is being speculated as our best weapon enchant come 3.0?
HotR has been normalized in fact, though in a rather unique way. It does damage equal to the weapon's DPS plus your DPS from Attack Power times four. For Hammer of the Righteous's own damage, the weapon speed is essentially a non-factor.
Seal Procs from Hammer of the Righteous however are still based on your weapon speed. This only really makes a difference in case you're using it with Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Blood/Martyr, but is something to keep in mind. I believe it's looking like Seal of Vengeance/Corruption as the best overall tanking seal for a long single target fight, and the direct damage component of that Seal, while based on weapon speed, is pretty negligible. It's all about the DoT damage for it, and that doesn't depend on your weapon speed.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
I already posted my thoughts on Maintankadin, and several people (including PsiVen) have posted in the original thread in an articulate and well thought out manner.
I'm rather disappointed that when the patch hits, my viability as a main tank will actually go DOWN (due to reduced HP from the STAM scaling nerf). Even the increase in block value won't really compensate (and that's not even using a comparison to the increased mitigation that Warriors are gaining). I'm really quite curious as to what kind of testing the devs are doing to only come up with a ~2% difference (2% in what, exactly? They certainly have more than 2% health and more than 2% mitigation over us).
Also, Ghostcrawler seems to be missing the point -- Paladins are main tanking in Sunwell right now in some guilds, but that doesn't mean that there's any good reason for them to do so. Prot Paladins want progression guilds to have a solid, mechanics-related reason to using a Paladin main tank, and there is currently no such reason to do so.
Bolded emphasis mine, because it's simply not true. Now, in relation to other classes you do have a case, but the patch provides a direct survivability boost for us.
* Deflection is now tier 1 ret. This really isn't a boost per se, but it does reduce the cost to free up points to be spent elsewhere. Holy Shield and Redoubt similarly cost less now too.
* Judgements of the Just means you'll always have a 20% attack speed debuff up against your target. While it's true warriors can currently provide this debuff, it's a substantial hit to their DPS cycle to do so, and you can't always count on it being active. EDIT: Currently warriors need to spend 3 talent points to boost the debuff from 10% to 20%, and very few DPS builds bother picking this talent up.
* The change to Anticipation is a direct 2.6% boost to avoidance at the cost of 0.8% chance to block. No matter how high your block value is, this is a buff to survival. This is also an indirect buff to all the avoidance on your gear, as well as clickies like [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch]. Yes, warriors get this change too.
* They've lumped Spell Warding into Guarded by the Light and boosted the percentage from 4% to 6%. This is a direct buff.
* Toughness now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects. While this does nothing to impact the damage taken from various attacks, it allows us to "get the eff out of the fire" much quicker.
* You are going to have a LOT more raid buffs in 3.0 and again at 80 than you do today. You can count on the added agility from shaman totems, extra HP from Blood Pact or Commanding Shout, Blessing of Sanctuary, extra heals from Devotion Aura or Tree of Life... The list goes on. The sum of these buffs more than make up for 6% HP scaling from stamina.
I'm not saying the tanking classes are balanced as they stand right now in beta, but to say our viability to tank has gone down is patently false. Survivability is getting a direct boost over what it is today, and pretty much every encounter will be easier to tank because of it.
Bolded emphasis mine, because it's simply not true. <snip>
Sorry, I really meant to say in relation to other classes.
Talking about relative survivability to the encounters doesn't really matter since 3.0 is going to nerf the melee output of bosses as well as their total HP.
Originally Posted by Bornakk
The creatures and bosses in raid dungeons that were introduced in The Burning Crusade will have their health reduced, and most will have their standard melee damage output reduced as well
Though, it's worth mentioning that your note about Anticipation may or may not hold true in terms of effect; the inclusion of diminishing returns from avoidance rating, as well as some of the non-tiered pieces of gear getting their avoidance reduced may result in an overall net loss of avoidance.
I'm not sure about that, though, I haven't re-copied my Paladin over to the PTR in awhile and I've gotten a significant number of gear upgrades since then. I have a suspicion that if you're wearing a lot of non-tiered pieces currently, you'll have lower avoidance when the patch hits than you do currently.
That's a good point about dodge/parry rating I'd forgotten to take into account. Ultimately it's going to be relative, and it'll be a bigger hit for someone with 60% avoidance than it is for someone with 40% avoidance. It's definitely something to watch for, though.
Though, it's worth mentioning that your note about Anticipation may or may not hold true in terms of effect; the inclusion of diminishing returns from avoidance rating, as well as some of the non-tiered pieces of gear getting their avoidance reduced may result in an overall net loss of avoidance.
The gear changes are not going to be nearly as significant for us as they are for end game Warriors. Across our 8-pieces of T6 armor, for example, we're losing something insignificant like 0.54% Dodge and 0.07% Block/Parry/Miss. Warriors' T6 set, on the other hand, is losing:
4.83% Dodge
3.69% Block
1.96% Parry
0.27% Miss
That's not including diminishing returns, which I haven't really attempted to fully understand as of yet. If I had to guess, it will probably make the Anticipation change a wash for us. Though I can pretty definitively say that our avoidance is going to be extremely comparable to a Warrior's now, which I think is going to make us a very appealing alternative for Brutallus, Twins, and M'uru sides.
Though I can pretty definitively say that our avoidance is going to be extremely comparable to a Warrior's now, which I think is going to make us a very appealing alternative for Brutallus, Twins, and M'uru sides.
It's a good thing warriors are getting a threat boost then, because my guild already prefers a prot paladin for those spots( well, we don't have enough prot pallies to actually do M'uru with one on the sides ) due to our superior threat generation.
I'm really not worried about the rest of TBC. Most guilds have their tanking situation pretty well in hand I would guess, and that won't change drastically in the two weeks before the expansion. I'm really hoping that for the expansion Blizzard can manage to get rid of the "paladins-can't-tank" mindset that I still see in SW guilds on my server to this day though, that would be most excellent.
I think there are still a few things that need to be fixed before we hit that mark though. Tanks getting feared and silenced and bosses that require spell reflect and silencing need to be removed. The mitigation differences would be nice, but I don't think that guilds are hesitant to have paladins MT right now because of that. Like GC said, how well one tanks matters a long sight more than 5% of damage difference. But when you have worse single target threat (something that's being addressed it sounds like), and a whole bunch of gimmick fights that are really hard to do as a paladin tank (see: Archi, RoS, Illi, Mother, Council[paladin], etc), then there's a compelling reason to not make your MT the one that's just as good for most of the fights, but sucks ass on some really tough ones...
In case of mana starvation also, most if not all the fights in TBC past Kara had some raid damage, you can just go get yourself into a AoE for additional mana (exhamples, VR had the Arcane damage Aoe in melee, Bloodboil cleaves and uses a cone breath and you can eventually ninja a blood boil, on Moroes you can grab a add or two and tank them, etc...)
I don't really see mana while OTing as issue at the moment. And worse by worse as Left said, pop SoB/M, which with the new STR on tank gear will still put some semi-decent threat, self damage, and steal some additional mana
I think Seal of Wis and Judge of wis is fine to use for keeping mana up while second-threating a npc/boss. ShoR does most of the threat,anyway, and SoV alone does 10% of the threat reportedly. So you could use the judgement of wis, ShoR, HOr for threat and regen from Seal of wis and the judgement.
Dmging yourself like with Seal of martyer is the worse option, an option but it maximizes your dmg-in.
"This Seal has changed, according to the current beta build it gives 4% of the paladins maximum mana (it has a 4 sec internal cooldown)
The judgment is giving 2% on each swing."
So assume SoWis gives 4% every 4s.
Judgement of Wis gives 2% every swing.
Assume 2 speed weapon for kicks.
Total mana regen=4%/4 + 2%/2=1+1 Total mana regen=2% /s
HoR requires 6% mana, 6s cd. Mana requirement per s= 6/6=1% /s
ShoR requires 6% mana, 6s cd. Mana requirement per s= 6/6=1% /s
Judgment requires 5% mana, 8/10s cd depending if paladin has imp judgement ret talent.
Mana requirement per s= 5/10=0.5% /s
Total mana consumption=2.5% /s
Total mana consumption=2.5% /s> 2% /s= Total mana regen
So a paladin is only losing 0.5% mana per second..
Wow, that is pretty good.
Ok, add some healing in there on you every so often for soem dmg-in and maybe consecration every so often and you have top mana.
The only tps you are losing as second threating-not tankign it is seal of vengeance, holy shield, ret aura and maxing out the consecration but single target tanking won't need consecration really to outaggro dps or be at tank aggro level anymore because of the new spells.
09/30/08, 3:13 PM
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