Protection and you! - Page 96

Prinsesa · 05/15/08, 2:15 AM

Originally Posted by Russta

Yes, that's why I said you'd only be missing out on Holy Shield threat for precisely that reason.

Wouldn't simply casting Holy Shield still generate threat, the same way casting Seals does?

Cathela · 05/17/08, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Wouldn't simply casting Holy Shield still generate threat, the same way casting Seals does?

Yeah, but mana sometimes gets tight in that situation. In my experiece tanking the demon (at capped FR), you tend to either get a string of resists on the fireball-thingy that leave you with a low debuff stack and taking very little damage, or you end up stacking the debuff fairly high, taking a bunch of damage and having oodles of mana. On the low-damage phases you tend to run pretty low on mana by the end so you don't want to be spending it on HS just to get a marginal bit of buffing threat. I guess there's no reason you couldn't do it when your damage intake is running high. Anyway, my experience has been that the extra threat from Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and the shield toss is generally enough to outweigh the loss of HS.

Which role is more optimal for a paladin tank really depends more on what you have in the raid anyway. I've done both, but we almost always run with two prot warriors who are good at the chase-and-pickup game, and I'm more enthusiastic about tanking the demon than our warlock tank, so we've done it that way. And I ended up needing the epic FR for Illidan anyway.

Aranan · 05/18/08, 8:26 PM

As far as professions go, is it pretty much a tossup between alchemy (trinkets and mad alchemy potions), JC (trinkets and bop gems), engineering (goggles and rocket launcher for sta/pulling), and enchanting (ring enchants).

Do any of these really pull ahead of the others?

Cathela · 05/19/08, 1:23 AM

Not especially. I've been happy enough with engineering, but it hasn't given me anything game-changing.

Certainly there's no profession that gives us anything as significant as what blacksmithing gives for melee classes/specs, or tailoring for casters.

• Chicken · 05/19/08, 4:31 AM

If you want to completely min/max and you have the best equipment possible Jewelrafting and Enchanting would be the best profession combination. The difference is only 11 stamina and 8 agility though (And two situationally useful trinkets from Jewelcrafting). If you're lucky enough to have gotten your hands on the upgraded version of the Engineering tanking goggles from Sunwell Engineering is pretty good; at lower gear levels the unupgraded version is pretty good too.

Other professions don't really provide much of use, the most useful tanking potion remains Ironshield which doesn't benefit from the Alchemy trinkets, and the BoP tier 5 boots you can make with blacksmithing are outclassed by both of the Badge boots.

kalbear · 05/19/08, 2:04 PM

As far as professions go, is it pretty much a tossup between alchemy (trinkets and mad alchemy potions), JC (trinkets and bop gems), engineering (goggles and rocket launcher for sta/pulling), and enchanting (ring enchants).

Given how hard it can be to get a T5+ helm, engineering gives a huge boost. If you're in a guild that will regularly down Vashj/Arch, then I'd say sure - engineering isn't going to be stellar. Otherwise it's a huge win.

I personally think that eng/ench works best; engineering for a fairly hard-to-replace piece of gear, and enchanting for more spelldamage and a nice synergy with soloing instances.

Kandir · 05/21/08, 5:11 AM

I'm leader for a group that just made it to Illidian and on the first night we went with our tankadin as MT, with moderate success (made it to p3/4, with a few tank deaths that seem to be healing related). Before the upcoming week's training I'd like to do some min/maxing and would be very appreciative if you experts could cast an eye on him and come with some constructive criticism.

Here's the armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's the WWS in question, linked to our best try:
Wow Web Stats

beimba claims he has 16 defense too much, but he claims that it's still better. Is that the case?

Looking ahead, I assume he should he be chugging ironshield pots in p5?

• Bryne · 05/21/08, 5:26 AM

@Kandir: Don't worry about your tank's defense stat - you simply end up with excess of the stat through normal gearing, and since it gives avoidance there's really no harm in it normally.

However, it is a problem when your tank is socketing +defense gems (for a +block rating bonus on gloves, seriously?). The +defense enchant to cloak is also slightly more avoidance than the +dodge enchant and will make up for the loss from gems.

Mongoose is also a pretty terrible weapon enchant (for paladins) and he should have +40 spell damage. The Darkmoon Card should really be replaced by a better trinket as well; the Commendation from heroic MgT, for instance, is a much better option.

Overall he just looks slightly undergeared for tanking Illidan - have you had no luck with T6 tokens? - but it's not going to prevent you from killing him with some elbow grease and practice.

vorda · 05/21/08, 5:50 AM

The +defense enchant to cloak is also slightly more avoidance than the +dodge enchant and will make up for the loss from gems.

No it isn't, it's slightly less avoidance but the flexibility that defense give to resistance gear and benefit on AoE trash makes it a better enchant.

That tank looks pretty undergeared yeah, any reason he doesnt have a single piece of t6? He's using Figurine at the moment so I'm not sure if this is his 'boss' tanking gear though.

He should also calculate if libram of repentance is still needed with his gear.

• Bryne · 05/21/08, 5:53 AM

You're right, it's 0.03% less pure avoidance but it's also 0.2% more block, which is relevant in this situation.

• Chicken · 05/21/08, 6:04 AM

Enchant Cloak - Dodge is actually slightly better for being able to push out Shear because Miss doesn't count for it. As miss is 0.2% of the 0.8% uncrushable from Enchant Cloak - Steelweave, the Enchant Cloak - Dodge is in fact 0.03% more avoidance for getting rid of Shear. Of course, 0.03% rarely makes the difference; I use Steelweave myself due to slight extra resist gearing flexibility the 0.2% crit reduction from it's defense gives.

Nobbynob Littlun · 05/21/08, 6:54 AM

Criminy! I skimmed+searched through this thread and am not finding any dirt on how spell hit affects partial resists - just info on full resists.

I'm seeing some pretty significant mitigation in WWS reports, and some pretty significant fluctuation from fight to fight as I switch from trash to bosses, as well as from boss to boss as I change gear (thus changing total spellhit rating). Can I assume that, while our spells have some unusual hit-or-miss rules, partial resists work the same way as they do for everyone else?

Seems reasonable, nearly obvious, but I don't like making assumptions if I can help it

Braque · 05/21/08, 7:06 AM

Originally Posted by Kandir

I'm leader for a group that just made it to Illidian and on the first night we went with our tankadin as MT, with moderate success (made it to p3/4, with a few tank deaths that seem to be healing related). Before the upcoming week's training I'd like to do some min/maxing and would be very appreciative if you experts could cast an eye on him and come with some constructive criticism.

Here's the armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's the WWS in question, linked to our best try:
Wow Web Stats

beimba claims he has 16 defense too much, but he claims that it's still better. Is that the case?

Looking ahead, I assume he should he be chugging ironshield pots in p5?

I'm surprised that a T6 raid group doesn't give their Main Tank epic gems, even if he's not always MT.

Kandir · 05/21/08, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Braque

I'm surprised that a T6 raid group doesn't give their Main Tank epic gems, even if he's not always MT.

Had that exact same thought this morning but concluded that he's had full access to the gems, but just didnt see the value in the small upgrade when someone else could use it more. Am basicly forcing them on him now though hehe.

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

Devil · 05/22/08, 2:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kandir

I'm leader for a group that just made it to Illidian and on the first night we went with our tankadin as MT, with moderate success (made it to p3/4, with a few tank deaths that seem to be healing related). Before the upcoming week's training I'd like to do some min/maxing and would be very appreciative if you experts could cast an eye on him and come with some constructive criticism.

Here's the armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's the WWS in question, linked to our best try:
Wow Web Stats

beimba claims he has 16 defense too much, but he claims that it's still better. Is that the case?

Looking ahead, I assume he should he be chugging ironshield pots in p5?

First off, Kael is still in mostly kara and t5 gear, why are you insisting he tanks Illidan? With his low armor and dodge, he would most likely be taking up to 14k mainhand hits during the p5 enrages which will be hard to live through. But it has been done before so my suggestions would be:

Currently he is using two stam trinkets, the abyssal ring and is ~4.5% shearable unbuffed(97.27%, need 101.8%).

I would swap his cloak for [Slikk's Cloak of Placation] increasing both his avoidance and armor.
Swap the Abyssal ring for either the [Ring of Sundered Souls] or [Ring of the Stalwart Protector] increasing avoidance and armor if using the badge ring.
Swap out a stam trinket for an avoidance trinket for use during enrages, preferably the pocketwatch as it should be off cd before his next enrage.
Get him some T6!, especially the gloves as they offer a lot of avoidance.

I would also suggest not using CoR when learning any fights or using an undergeared tank and make sure the warrior keeps up DS and TC.