Some oddities in that screenshot that may have contributed to issues:
She only did HotR 18 times to 21 SotR. If she's dropping a few HotRs for Exorcisms I could see it, but her consecrate is doing less damage which either means she was dropping consecrates for them, or should have been.
I'm not going to straight up say we're not needing more damage or threat, but if she worked on her rotation/priorities she might have better results.
...actually, we know how much damage she did, and how much dps she had, so you can figure out the length of the fight to 175 seconds...3 minutes. In that period of time, I'd expect to see at least 28 SotRs, but I see only 21. I'd expect to see the same amount of HotRs, unless that's what she was dropping for exorcisms/reseals. If I'm recalling correctly, consecrate ticks every second, and only the first tick can be resisted. If she had been dropping consecrate every 9 seconds, and the first tick was resisted each time, you'd still see 132 ticks for that time period.
Is she lagging, using some odd rotation and subbing in non-damage abilities, or am I completely failing at math?
Also, she got crushed 30 times...isn't that supposed to be out, or is that something special about Patchwerk?
I'm not entirely sure about what rotation Fiorina used, but I didn't see you mention using Avenger's Shield to replace some of the 6s cooldowns (HotR is the best candidate to drop for it), so that might explain it somewhat.
That is probably a bug in recount of some sort. The damage you are looking at are Fiorina's attacks, not patchwerk's. It is saying Fiorina crushed Patchwerk 30 times, not the other way around. Still weird though.
For those of you looking at post-patch, pre-WotLK raiding, and as an exercise in our itemization under the new mechanics, how would you rate [Lightbringer Chestguard] against [Chestplate of Stoicism].
My thoughts first, but I am interested in how others rank the items under the new system. For frame of reference, assume a mix of main tanking heavy hitters (T6 point of view), such as bloodboil, AOE tanking, with more minor T6 bosses sprinkled in.
My Thoughts
Lightbringer provides (over Stoicism):
+21 stamina (two extra sockets, minus the extra stam Stoicism has on it innately).
+9 Strength
+60 Armor
+8 BV
+23 Block Rating
On the surface, Lightbringer provides a larger quantity of benefits, but looking at them one by one:
The stamina is very valuable, no question.
The 9 Strength translates to 9*1.15*1.1 = 11.4 STR after buffs/talents. It yields some 5 BV and 22 AP as a result. The 5 BV helps mitigation, and the 22 AP just helps TPS/DPS.
The 60 armor and 8 BV help with mitigation, though fairly minor bonuses over Stoicism.
The 23 Block Rating will mostly get pushed off the table as most tanks (myself included) run well over 102.4% mitigation with HS up.
So I find the stamina valuable, the 8+5=13 BV nice, and the 60 armor fairly minor, when it comes to helping mitigation. The 22 AP simply helps DPS/TPS, which seems likely to be a non-issue in T6 gear post-patch, if all reports hold true.
In constrast, the only real benefit of Stoicism is some amount of Dodge. Something slightly less than 1.8% due to DR.
Seems fair to me that the question boils down to some 21*1.06*1.06*1.1*10 = 259 HP (raid buffed with talents) vs. almost 1.8% dodge.
Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?
As for casters couldnt we add a side efect (perhaps glyphed) to AvengerShield so that when it hits the target deals 50% less magic damage for the next attack, or silence/interrupt effect (pulling casters, and/or tanking casters).
Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?
It really depends on a few things. If you're getting a set bonus from having the T6 chest, that's one factor to consider. There are also other pieces (Helm, Legs) that are easily replaced by off-set pieces (Faceplate, 2.4 Badge Legs, Kalec Legs) so the chest may be one of those pieces that you keep for the 2 or 4pc bonus.
In my mind, T6 chest can generally win on its stamina bonus but since I'm not going to have a prot t6 chest anytime soon, Stoicism is a really fantastic choice.
As for all the RD stuff, I've actually only ever seen 2 RD resists in my tanking career, but I've seen a LOT (probably pushing into the hundreds) of times when RD simply failed, went on CD, no effects happened. It's fantastically irritating for a lot of us, and fixing its buggy mechanics would go a long ways to help shore up Paladin taunting. It would still be nice to have a backup, though.
I am one of those people that have had fantastically bad luck with Righteous Defense. On one night of Brutallus attempts, one our usual tanks was out ( I was primarily a tank but had been respeccing Ret for this fight ) so I stayed as protection spec. I finally got the rotation down, but had RD fail (not resist, just absolutely nothing happened) an astounding SIX times in a row. The guild and I agreed...I would not be tanking this fight again.
I don't really feel like we need a new taunt, I would just like RD to work.
Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?
Lightbringer gives you more soaking ability and reduces damage taken on all hits; Stoicism gives you a greater chance for full avoidance. I prefer the former.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
If she had been dropping consecrate every 9 seconds, and the first tick was resisted each time, you'd still see 132 ticks for that time period.
Keep in mind though, the combat log does not show consecration ticks that got resisted.
You can easily test this by dropping a consecrate on the boss level dummy and watch your combat log.
example: (I'm level 70 and used the level 80 dummy)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration Missed [Grandmaster's Training Dummy]. (Missed)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration afflicted [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
07:20:28> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:32> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:34> [Your] Consecration dissipated [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
As you can see, there are only 2 ticks. While the log clearly states the affliction and dissipation of the spell with the exact duration of 8 seconds.
What this means is, recount will not be able to track any resisted ticks. She might have spammed the spell but only 70 out of 132 ticks actually hit.
Keep in mind though, the combat log does not show consecration ticks that got resisted.
You can easily test this by dropping a consecrate on the boss level dummy and watch your combat log.
example: (I'm level 70 and used the level 80 dummy)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration Missed [Grandmaster's Training Dummy]. (Missed)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration afflicted [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
07:20:28> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:32> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:34> [Your] Consecration dissipated [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
As you can see, there are only 2 ticks. While the log clearly states the affliction and dissipation of the spell with the exact duration of 8 seconds.
What this means is, recount will not be able to track any resisted ticks. She might have spammed the spell but only 70 out of 132 ticks actually hit.
I was unaware of this change. That certainly would explain that part of it.
I was unaware of this change. That certainly would explain that part of it.
It's not a change, it's just a very unknown fact of Consecration: The spell does "miss" like other spells do, in it's case potentially on every tick, but it's not reported in the combat log when it does miss. I only learned of it myself a month ago, and had prior to that incorrectly stated in the Protection Paladin article that only the first tick could be resisted.
buff /bÊŒf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
When the training dummies die, do they come back immediately, or is there lag?
One thing we figured out at maintankadin a long time ago was the first tick resist thing was bogus. Some had gone through tons of combat logs and found that the resist message we saw was a resist for the application of the spell and not a tick. Basically we would see a resist message followed by 8 ticks of the spell, indicating that the resist was not for the ticks at all.
This would be new if actual ticks are getting resisted though. In all our tests we still had 8 ticks for every cast, with some partially resisted, but never fully that I recall.
So these results make me curious for sure. I guess I need to go play on some practice dummies and see how they react.
Training dummies do not die. They have 1 HP, so they always experience (damage-1) as overkill, but they will never die.
I think it's also important that if you discover something on dummies, that you also try it on an actual mob as much as possible, since training dummies can produce weird results because of their immortal-but-hittable status. Specifically, the Affliction Warlock's Pandemic talent never procs on a dummy, but works perfectly fine on any other mob.
This would be new if actual ticks are getting resisted though. In all our tests we still had 8 ticks for every cast, with some partially resisted, but never fully that I recall.
Consecration seems to have changed in functionality. In my many, many tests in TBC it was often partially resisted but individual ticks were never fully resisted as far as I can recall. However, in 3.0 Consecrate now has each tick be fully resisted and they can also be partially resisted. Essentially it works just like any other spell now but each tick is treated as a new spell.
The initial application could always be resisted but that had no effect. The same is true now, the 'debuff' of Consecrate shows up as resisted in the log, but that has no effect on the damage.
Consecration seems to have changed in functionality. In my many, many tests in TBC it was often partially resisted but individual ticks were never fully resisted as far as I can recall. However, in 3.0 Consecrate now has each tick be fully resisted and they can also be partially resisted. Essentially it works just like any other spell now but each tick is treated as a new spell.
That's what I was getting out of the comments earlier as well. I was more responding to the comment that this isn't a change, when in fact that in live, it doesn't seem to do this as far as the testing we did shows, so it would be a change from the current state (unless I am remembering wrong). I was considering the current state as live since both PTR and Beta are still in testing. If consecration will be able to fully resist/miss on each individual tick, this is a pretty interesting change.
Something that our Ret brethren are already used to dealing with (with CS), but continued testing on the PTR shows that Hammer of the Righteous does not start auto-attacks. (Judging still does, however.)
For those who plan on leading off combat with a quick HotR, I'd recommend the following macro:
#showtooltip Hammer of the Righteous
/startattack
/cast Hammer of the Righteous
That's what I was getting out of the comments earlier as well. I was more responding to the comment that this isn't a change, when in fact that in live, it doesn't seem to do this as far as the testing we did shows, so it would be a change from the current state (unless I am remembering wrong). I was considering the current state as live since both PTR and Beta are still in testing. If consecration will be able to fully resist/miss on each individual tick, this is a pretty interesting change.
It could certainly affect the prioritization of Consecration in any given rotation. If it's able to miss like other spells, is it affected by the hit rating? I believe its current incarnation's "resist" check is due to its former life as an AoE DoT spell that applied a debuff, which is what the "resist" was for. On live, it's a relatively important spell to have up as it is essentially unresistable (similar to how Judging with Blood is unresistable) and guaranteed threat, but if that is no longer the case, then it is much easier to consider skipping it in the rotation (which I already do on live sometimes).
I haven't seen this discussed anywhere on EJ, so here goes.
- First off, you said that Shield of Righteousness was getting 2 ranks. I would like to know when are we going to see this second rank? And what level do we learn each rank? Which btw, I don't get it why people complain about this spell, yes it's copied. But this spell should've been part of the paladin class a long time ago. Seeing my paladin shield slam feels so right, I can't even understand why it took so long to get one. Copied or not, I'm glad we finally got this spell, we are masters of shields (talking about paladin lore in any game), feels only natural that we get attacks that utilizes our shield for damage.
It has two ranks. Rank 1 is level 75 and rank 2 is level 80.
- In blizzcon when you were asked about the single target taunt for paladins you said you don't believe it to be necessary and don't want to homogenize the tanks. There have been many threads in this forum telling you guys it is necessary. There is no ifs and buts about it. You guys say you read the forums and I believe that, but what I think is happening is you don't believe us. There has been many times where our taunt has failed to work and it's not even a question about getting resisted. Can we please get that single target taunt. And when I mean taunt I mean it taunts the mob and not the target of target. Are we going to see anything being done about our taunt failing at the worst possible time?
Telling us it is necessary != us being convinced it is necessary. A lot of bad changes would go into the game if we just made whatever changes players asked for in forums. We have to be very cautious.
- I was surprised that at blizzcon no one asked this question, so I'm asking it now. Are we ever going to see anything being done about avenger shield? To many times in the last couple of days I was frustrated with this spell daze effect. Trying to pull one group ending up pulling more because of the patrol coming in and seeing those 3 mobs taking 10 sec to reach me. We asked for a silence so many times. and I know the response will be you don't want to homogenize the tanks., but there wouldn't be none, if you would've given it to paladins first, like we ask for the past 2 years. I'll gladly pay for a glyph that changes the daze into a silence or something else.
It's something we are considering. If it was a change we had already decided to make I would have posted it.
How about adding it to the avenger shield glyph that changes it to a single target spell with double damage, have it as well change our daze into a 3 sec silence. Or have it on seperate glyphs. Those that like the daze get to keep it, and those that don't, get to have that silence they wanted. So again the question is. Is there anything that can be done about the daze effect on AS? Or do you guys like it that way and don't plan on changing it at all?
We have more glyphs planned to slowly release over time.
- Another question I was surprised that wasn't asked, our health is currently way below all other tanks. I can live with being 200 health for example behind the other tanks. It is not however acceptable to be 1k health or more behind them. Is there anything in the works about fixing the low health on paladin tanks?
You're going to have trouble convincing me that a 1000 health delta (if that's even it) is going to be the difference between getting invited to a raid or not. Bosses can hit for easily 10 times that now and you can shield block for more than that. A number that small can easily get swalled up just depending on the gear that drops for you. Are you expecting a guild to take a paladin tank and then swap one out when the warrior gets his shoulders to drop? I'm not going to promise all stats will be identical.
Well that is the questions I had to ask,. There are many other things that need some work, but there not as vital as the ones I mentioned above, at least to me. Mitigation and Threat isn't issue, just need some utility to go along our way and then I think most of us will be happy.
I doubt most of you will be happy, but thanks for the thought.
Well, first off...
Rank 2 of ShoR at level 80: Awesome! This is great news, and although I'm doubtful that the coefficient will increase at all across ranks, we can hope that the flat damage is significantly higher (I'm going to estimate +600 for Rank 2).
Secondly...
I'd really, really like to hear which Developer has played a Prot. Paladin, if any at all. I've had RD 'break' (no resist message, nothing in the combat log, but goes on cooldown) so many times in important situations, I've lost count. Giving Paladins a single target taunt will be too much 'homogenization,' even when THREE of the other tanking classes have one? Please. I hope they take the damned blinders off soon.
The health and avenger's shield daze issues are kind of minor to me at this point, although it would be nice for them to just increase our base health and stick our Stamina scaling at 6% -- they did something similar for Death Knights, and why shouldn't plate wearing tanks have about the same HP (200~300 HP difference at most), anyways? I think Blizzard is succumbing to the endless complaints about classes becoming too similar.
I'm still hoping for a buff to HotR, but considering no one else seems to think it's an issue (even though it's one of our lowest contributing abilities for threat, even below Holy Shield on some fights), I'm not holding my breath.
Have they said anything about giving our glyphs another pass? Compared to the warrior and deathknight glyphs a lot of ours seem pretty lackluster. Our current tanking glyphs are
Major:
Glyph of Avenger's Shield
Glyph of Avenging Wrath
Glyph of Consecration
Glyph of Exorcism
Glyph of Judgement
Glyph of Righteous Defense
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance
Glyph of Spiritual Attunement
Minor:
Glyph of Sense Undead
Glyph of the Wise
Glyph of Avenger's Shield is a good one for bosses but hurts getting initial agro on multiple mobs, historically one of our strengths. If it was something you could click on and off at will it would be fantastic. Glyph of Avenging Wrath: twice as many hammer of wraths for 20 seconds every 3 minutes. I don't know our numbers but HoW would have to do a ton of damage to justify a glyph slot that will be used probably once per boss. Glyph of Consecration: We aren't mana starved anymore so the mp5 benefit isn't helpful and this throws off our rotation, additionally with consecrate ticks being fully resistible its less valuable on the whole that on live. Glyph of Exorcism: assuming they let us use this on any target it becomes a very nice second interrupt which will be very helpful on some bosses. If it stays usable only on undead and demons, well shit. Glyph of Judgement: 10% more damge off something we will be using every cooldown? hurray! Glyph of Righteous Defense: A must have but it still won't make up for the fact that RD is buggy as hell. Glyph of Seal of Vengeance: Last I heard we will pretty much always be tanking with vengeance so this is a very nice boost to our tps and a defensive boost to avoiding parry hasteing the mob. Glyph of Spiritual Attunement: I only included this for completenesses sake, since sanctuary is so good now and this is such a small boost (10% > 11%) there's no reason to take it.
For minor glyphs we have: Glyph of Sense Undead: Damage is always nice. Glyph of the Wise: 50% less mana to put up seal of wisdom is pretty marginal since we won't really need the mana except special situations like dpsing once our target is dead in multi-target boss fight. Glyph of Lay on Hands: May as well take this since the others are just to save time/mana reblessing before a fight.
We get 2 major and 3 minor glyphs at 70 and a 3rd major at 80. We have 4, possibly 5 major glyphs worth taking at the moment: Avenger's Shield, Judgement, righteous defense, vengeance, and possibly exorcism. Compared to warriors having 9 major and 4 minor glyphs of varying usefulness its pretty frustrating.
Kayoto: Eyonix is the only blizzard person I remember seeing actually admit to having a paladin: WoW BlueTracker: A Real Paladin Tank Weapon. He was a big fan of spell hit on the badge gear for some reason and is probably why we have instant AS now. I wish he had the same luck with RD that almost every other paladin has, then maybe we would get it fixed.
As far as health why can't we have the advantage over warriors for a change? If 1k hp isn't enough to make a difference shouldn't it be just as fair to have us 1k ahead of warriors? It would make up for the admittedly small but existent mitigation gap.
Kayoto: Eyonix is the only blizzard person I remember seeing actually admit to having a paladin: WoW BlueTracker: A Real Paladin Tank Weapon. He was a big fan of spell hit on the badge gear for some reason and is probably why we have instant AS now. I wish he had the same luck with RD that almost every other paladin has, then maybe we would get it fixed.
As far as health why can't we have the advantage over warriors for a change? If 1k hp isn't enough to make a difference shouldn't it be just as fair to have us 1k ahead of warriors? It would make up for the admittedly small but existent mitigation gap.
By the way, not that I disagree with your assessment of how it wouldn't be unreasonable for us to have more health than Warriors, but your basis of the 'small but existent' mitigation gap isn't accurate unless Ardent Defender is getting leapfrogged consistently (which, currently, I haven't heard of that happening in WotLK raids).
Most of the AD tracking mods actually list its mitigation over the course of a single night at 1~2%, not to count the many raid wipes it can save, so mitigation-wise I think we can safely say we're on par.
I'd still love to see the endless amounts of complaining if we were given more HP than Warriors in Wrath, though. In all honesty, that's probably the only reason it won't happen, since, as you said, there's no mechanics-based reason why Paladins couldn't be the plate+shield tank with the higher HP instead of Warriors.
So what's the word on the better tanking spell now? Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better? I have my own opinions and limited experiences in beta but I'd like to see some numbers if anyone has any.
Eyonix and the other CMs main job is to communicate to the players and to pass feedback to the developers. Eyonix didn't say "I love spell hit on my Paladin!" and then some item developer added spell hit to those items. I have no idea why some dev put spell hit on them, but tomorrow it will not matter.
The best seal for Prot is SoV because you get 10 expertise with a glyph, plus with Hammer you can put the DoT on 3 targets.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I use seal of light non stop because honestly, it's just not needed at all for threat reasons. So unless you're really sure that your healers will be able to keep you up all the time use light. Sure sor and vegneance do nice damage, but I'm rather alive than first on damage meters.
Doing 15% of the total healing in 5 man heroics is quite nice as well.
edit: Obviously this is with the current beta version of seal of light where it procs of nearly every attack and heals for ~900, I'm not sure if that really is intended. For really hard content you'll probably want to use vegneance because of the expertise on it.
Perhaps my question wasn't clear. I was wondering what is best for THREAT. Yes, I use Judgment of Light, however I'm wondering what's the best Seal to use for threat generation. I'm usually tanking the big guys in Sunwell and threat is more of an issue then heals, as I usually have 3-4 healers on me plus HoT's, so 90% of the time I'll want a threat seal and not Light. Also, I'm a Blood Elf and (unless I'm mistaken) we will NOT be getting Seal of Vengeance (alliance only, right?). Obviously Seal of Corruption is similar, however I don't believe the glyph works for that.
So, I pose my question re-worded:
Which is better for threat generation: Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better for threat? Anyone have actual data to support a clear winner for threat generation?
In my opinion, I would assume SoR is better for single target and SoC would be better for multi-target, but I've been told both ways that one is better for the other regardless of mob count. Has anyone done a recorded numbers test on the PTR?
So, I pose my question re-worded:
Which is better for threat generation: Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better for threat? Anyone have actual data to support a clear winner for threat generation?
In my opinion, I would assume SoR is better for single target and SoC would be better for multi-target, but I've been told both ways that one is better for the other regardless of mob count. Has anyone done a recorded numbers test on the PTR?
Seal of Vengance....the glyph is a huge TPS boost and hammer has some nice AOE type advantages with it.
10/08/08, 1:48 AM
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