Thanks for the answers. Well I'll see to my survivability then and to my aggro making with just "het gouden oog". There is no good translation for it but it mean you know what you're doing and you know what to take in what mesures

The biggest advantage paladins have over other tanks in low level instances is that they can give salvation

Debuffs cause a token amount of threat when applied: If you body-pull a pack, a Warlock can aggro a mob by placing Curse of Shadows on it, even if that spell does 0 damage. The same would apply to HOJ, but the amount of threat is nothing special, and certainly not substantial.

Your Warrior friend may have been talking about Improved Revenge, which gives Revenge a chance to stun targets. Even in this case, the stun does not cause any additional threat - it's the Revenge itself that does that.

Yes, this is true for stuns (and other CCs) in general. I often tell my Rogue friends to refrain from using Cheap Shot on a mob that I didn't hit with Avenger's Shield.

Just tested this on mobs outside Shattrath with a druid friend providing various levels of wrath spam.


First test:
The druid pulls with ~500 dmg wrath, I stun and crit 750 JoR, and instantly disengage (no autoattack hits or anything else). When stun wears off, the mob runs to me.

Second test:
I open with HoJ (but do no damage) and the druid throws a starfire (max rank). When the stun wears off, the mob runs to the druid.


We also did a couple of tests on how much threat the application of HoJ does, basically HoJ created less threat than a ~250 dmg wrath, but more than a ~100 dmg wrath. In case it matters, I had RF up and the druid was resto with subtlety talent (20%).

So while I do not know how other stuns work in this regard, HoJ definatly does not prevent me from building threat on the mob. It would still prevent me from taking damage and thus depriving me of mana, but that is a different discussion.

The next logical test would be to see if Righteous Defense works on a stunned mob. IE, can you stun, RD, and then go back to what you are doing confident that the mob will run to you when the stun wears off? I would imagine you can't, as RD has a limited duration of effectiveness. However, it would be interesting to find out.

I believe the reason for this is because when they are stunned they are not actually targeting anything and so there is nothing to taunt off.

This. There are very few incapacitated targets that can be taunted, simply because our taunt works on target-of-target for harmful NPCs.

Also, for the case of taunting something _as_ it's sheeped, well that's because taunt gives you an equal amount of threat as the player you taunted off of, and focuses the mob on you. So if your druid friend was doing _anything_ when the sheep broke, then she'd be back on top of the threat list.

Couldn't find anything in this thread about the season 3 spelldamage mace [Vengeful Gladiator's Gavel], vs [Hammer of Judgement]. These are really my 2 best options, we do not run hyjal any more so ToC is not within my reach, and the [Reign of Misery] seems like a chunk of wasted itemization points (besides the fact that our spriests and ele shaman still need it).

It's a tradeoff of 11 damage, 1.6 speed and a cooler looking weapon (what..?) for a minor stat loss in other depts - 3 less stam, 2 less int, 5 less spellhit. The pricetag is a little heavy, and even though i'm near point cap i'd like to not waste points on things that may not be worth it, especially with season 4 lurking about. So what i'm asking is, is the stat trade worth 3150 points, or would i be better off to waste them elsewhere, like on the s3 healing mace (to upgrade from the zul'jin one)?

Personal rating is not an issue, either.

I'd just like to add that while HoJ does have a bit of innate threat built into it, you'll almost never want to use it for the threat component. Stunned mobs do not attack, so your Holy Shield and reflective damage go out the window. I typically reserve HoJ for situations where a mob peels off to someone else and I don't have the mana/time/cooldowns to grab aggro immediately. The 6 second stun generally buys enough time for my RD cooldown to come up for a quick taunt + judgement afterwards, and in some cases the thing is almost dead by then anyway so it's not worthwhile to care beyond that.

Back when I'd run heroics on a regular basis I was in the habit of stunning target #2 on initial pulls of heavy-hitting mobs, since that would buy the healer some breathing room without sacrificing threat on the primary target. Nowadays I don't bother because I want to take every drop of damage I can get my hands on in order to keep up with my DPS, so your mileage may vary.

I am just starting out as a tanking paladin and have the Violet Eye Trinket and the old Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether. Thinking that protection paladins keep shiel block up so much I was thinking I could spend badges for a first quick upgrade and get Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600.

Should I save my badges or is this good first upgrade worth as much as I think it is?

Save your badges. The Auto-Blocker is block VALUE, not block RATING. And while block rating is good for starting out with, it is also the first of the four avoidance/mitigation mechanics (miss, dodge, parry, block) to fall off the end of the combat table, so you shouldn't really stack too much of it anyway.

Also, get [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance]. That's awesome for the amount of raiding/instancing you have to do( Read: none ).