The shadowpriest numbers look quite high. Did you include each tick of mindflay as procing JoW?

Even assuming the ideal case scenario of one tick/gcd, that would be around 50% chance of restoring 75 mana per 1.5 seconds, or 75 mana / 3, or 75 / 3 *5 mana per 5, roughly 125 mana/5. That's the complete utter highest number obtainable unless there is a flaw in my math.

Obviously, that's completely unrealistic, since no caster always casts one instant spell every GCD, although shadow priests get the closest if they don't use mindflay much. Arcane mages are the only class that gets above that, but they are gone in the next patch.

Well, you can use hunter gear then, plenty of ap and crit + some int.

Yes, but it is AP and not Str, so it won't synergize as well with talents.

Why are people hell bent at escaping from actual ret gear. You know while spelldamage isn't the top dog stat, it's still very useful to have.

Anyway, I think this is digressing away from my original point which is evaluating the worth of "warrior gear" vs ret gear in practice rather than theory (spreadsheet).


What she said.

T5 has "8" more spelldamage than T4 eh, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It also has 5 more str and ~0.2% more crit. The only thing T4 has that T5 doesn't is the hit rating, so unless you need that hit rating to get over the hit cap and are missing while wearing T5, T4 is inferior in every way.

I think it's better to stop pursuing this argument at this point in order not to derail the thread

There has been a little talk lately about Int/Mp5 and it's effect on dps. I thought i would give you my TC on Int/Mp5 and why i have chosed to ignore is as a weighting in my spreadsheet.

1)In any given fight a paldin uses X amount of mana per second through his abilities (SoC/JoC/CS). He also gains Y mana per second through BoW/JoW/Mana Potting. If for any given dps rotation....

Mana Pool - (Fight Duration in seconds * (Y-X) > 0

...then the paladin will not run out of mana during the fight

2) The absolute minimum rotation a paladin must do is to keep SoC uptime at 100% and use CS on cooldown. Using version 16 (hopefully released later tofay) of my calculation you can see that with Bow/JoW/Mana pots this is easily obtainable in 0mp5 gear. Because of this, the dps gain mp5 will give you is from allowing you to judge at a more regular interval or allowing you to use other abilities such as exorcism.

3) So lets look at two example of Mp5 increasing dps:-

A) I plugged in a tier 5 set with 0 mp5. I found out that it enabled me to keep CS/SoC up and judge SoC every 15.85 seconds keeping mana lost/gained equal. To reduce this to a 9 sec judgement took 50.9mp5 and produced a 45.5dps increase. If this Mp5 was itemised as strength then you would get 127.25 Strength would have increased dps by 76.7.

B) Now let's look at Exorcism. 1Mp5 allows you to cast 1 exorcism every 1700 seconds for an average hit of 985 (with 200 spell damage + jotc). This works out at 0.58 dps per 1mp5. Since 1 Mp5 would give you 2.5 strength which equates to roughtly 1.5dps increase. Again mp5 is far less effective than strength.

4) As a quick note, i have focused on Mp5. Since 1Mp5 = 2.5int, after Bok etc have been taken into account 1Mp5 produces more mana than Int after 3min20sec. Since most fights are longer than this, i have used Mp5 in the calculations above as it is the stonger of the two stats.

Conclusion:-

What this all means is that whilst Int /Mp5 do have an effect on dps, the gains by putting the stats elsewhere (str/crit) is far greater. However in terms of gear selection, some items such as lightbringer may work out to produce a higher dps output than warrior equivalent gear due to the fact that it allows you to alter your playstyle to include more JoC etc into your rotation. This however is impossible to model as the model is based upon fixed gear/buff/playstyle. It would be a nightmare to model playstyle based on mana/int.

However in the next version of the model that should come out later today there will be an ability to alter your playstlyle slightly, there will be a mana analysis and there along with the dps output there will be a time till OOM, so you can adjust gear/playstle until you get the right combination of dps and time till OOM.

Would it be possible for Bellator to include (improved)SoR in his DPS spreadsheet ?

The reason why I ask that is the recent tests we did me and our resident ret paladin on the 2.3 PTR with the blasted land immortal mob :

We tried different setups, but generally we had all the PVE ret talents but I was using improved SoR and him SoC:
- my stats on the PTR in DPS gear with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 1400 attack power, +650 spell damage, around 23% melee crit, 13% spell crit. I was swinging Bloodmoon
- my friends stats with BoM and full stacks of darkmoon card crusade buffs are around 2200 attack power, +280 spell damage, 30% melee crit, 8% spell crit, he's using worldbreaker.

[EDIT detailled gear]
- My DPS gear consisted of the following parts:

- T4 ret helm enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor spell damage neck gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S1 ret shoulder and chest enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- honor S1 ret bracer enchanted and gemmed in spell damage
- Arena S3 ret gloves, unenchanted or T4 ret gloves enchanted in spell damage (I tried both)
- honor S2 ret belt
- Arena S2 ret legs enchanted in spell damage
- honer S2 ret boots
- 2 spell damage rings (exalted Kara and another random one from Kara)
- darkmoon card crusade
- heroic badges spell damage trincket
- bloodmoon
- new SoR libram (I usually used libram of Zeal, but this new one seems better).

- My SoC friend gear is the following:

- 4 Arena S2 ret pieces enchanted and gemmed in strength/melee crit
- Blacksmith T3 chest
- Worldbreaker with savagery
- neck from SSC, 1 epic melee ring from SSC, 1 from exalted Shatar.
- bracers from Lurker
- crafted belft from SSC
- Honor S2 ret boots
- darkmoon card crusade
- +70 AP and haste on use blue trincket from mechanar.
- libram from blood furnace heroic.

[/EDIT]

The tests consisted on going all out while we were not oom (JoCr and JoW on the mob, so it lasted around 5 minutes), we both used concecration rank 1 in the rotations, we used all the trinckets, wings and everything when possible.

Using this setup, I constantly outDPS him by between 50 and 100 dps. My DPS using ImpSoR was around 1000 dps. My average SoR proc is around 900 (using the new SoR libram), my average normal JoR is around 1340, our average CS are about the same (around 1150).

Another thing we tried is adding an elemental shamy (so, no unleashed rage) in the group, when he used grace of air, my DPS advantage increased to +150 DPS compared to my friend. When he used WF then my SoC friend managed to finally outdps me by around 40 DPS ... For my SoR spec, the DPS increase of grace of air or WF was about the same.

I know that this mob is far from being a raid boss, that's why I think it would help the theorycrafting if Bellator could add SoR in his DPS spreadsheet

Djardin can you tell me what kind of equip you use?

- I edited my original post to detail my gear and my friend gear (I was swinging bloodmoon and not mooncleaver).
- I tanked all the tries we did by using rigteous fury (Omen said I was doing around 1300 TPS /flex .

Hi guys,

I have upgraded my Dps model. It can be found here:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This has lots of new functionality, so I will try to explain the model as much as possible here. Worth reading even if you have come to grips with previos version

1) The first section "Dps and Skill Overview" gives an overview of the different abilities used, their base mana cost, mana per second usage (mps) and dps contribution. Along with it is the overall dps and a new "Time till Out of Mana" figure

2) Below this is the "Information" section which gives stat data based on gear buffs etc. It now includes some information on mana.

3) The "Gear" section below this allows you to select your gear from the item in the database. By clicking the "Show Detail" button shows the gem/enchant slots and lets you select them. "Strength gems" button fills all your sockets with strength gems and "Correct Gems" fills all the sockets with the best gems to ensure the gem socket bonus is obtained. As usual you can save/load/delete gear profiles (some are already included)

4) "Talents/Buffs/Pots" section below this allows as always to turn on off various talents/buffs/pots

5) "Playstyle / Mana Info" is a NEW section which allows you to adjust various aspects of your playstyle / talents which effect the mana usage. This includes:-

A) Benedition - allows you to set how many talent points you have here
B) Sanctified Judgement - allows you to set how many talent points you have here (only 0,3 are options atm)
C) Rank of SoC Used - self explanatory
D) How Judgement is used - Gives 3 options. "On Cooldown" means you will judge whenever possible do that it does not interfer with SoC uptime or CS. "Every 30 seconds" means you judge every 30seconds and refresh seal. "Never" means you simply refresh seal every 30 seconds.
D) Blessing of Wisdom / JoW / Mana Pots on CoolDown / Shadow priest allow you to set how your group/buffs/pot usage is.

Below this it shows you your Mp5 from gear, total mps in, total mps out and an overal mps gain/loss

6) Just below this is a "Judgement CD Override". When this is turned on it allows you to set a specific time in seconds between each judgement.

What sections 5 & 6 allow you to do is check out the difference between dps gear with and without mp5/int. If you gear up with warrior and then switch to a play style which allows you to not go OOM, you can then put on int/mp5 gear and adjust the playstyle (more JoC's etc) to allow for the increased mana, and thus compare the different overall dps output of the two styles.

7) Finally there the graph section. The graph will only show either SoC or SoB as specified by the option. There is also an option to state how many armour penetration rating you get for 1 itemisation point (since this value is currently unknown). Pressing the button will show your overall dps increase as you spend itemization points in the various stats.

On the right hand side is the SEP (Strength Equivalence Points) of the various stats. It used 1 Strength as the base, and shows how much of each other stat is needed to obtain the same dps increase.

8) Finally, on the item calc sheet is a button which will work out various upgrades based on the buffs/items/playstyle selected.

....Thank you for your time


Some quick side notes:-

1) I know some people are having problems with the sheet in OOM etc. Unfortunately i do not have the time to learn how these various programs deal with VBA code. Whilst i will fix any bugs that occur, I don't have the time to ensure the spreadsheet is compatible with every program that can open it

2) SoB is not fully implemented in some of these calculations (ie the OOM figure) If i get the time, i will try to make it as functional for SoB as it is for SoC

3) If i get time i will include SoR. However i very much doubt i will have time and it is very low on my priority list as i can guarentee a str/ap SoC build in a raid environment will beat SoR ten times out of ten. My apologies.

I have no trouble using any of the buttons or charts in Excel 2003, FWIW.