I'm trying to crunch numbers on the effectiveness of Armor Pen vs Haste.
Easiest would be to stack up ArP and haste gearsets in Bellator's spreadsheet and see which gives you more dps. Generally haste is better but ArP becomes very competitive once you have a lot of it (1000+). And some ArP items are best in slot for SoB - [Leggings of Divine Retribution], [Cataclysm's Edge].
On the subject of ArP, has the itemisation cost been calculated yet? Not seen anything anywhere and would like to know exactly how good/bad ArP in per itemisation point.
Is everything being taken in to account? Some of this doesn't seem right with the armor pen. I'll plug in as much armor pen this time and see what I come up with.
Yeah that's what I meant. Edited my post to avoid confusions. For easy verification, you can look at the T6 paladin bracers and T6 DPS Warrior bracers. Same stats, 1 socket each, 21 haste on ret vs 140 ArP on warrior. So (21/140=0.15)
Yes, Armor Penetration is good when stacked but for blood elves haste is clearly better per itemization point. Seeing so much haste in our 2.4 gear, that's a good thing! There's no real reason to go for a stacked Armor Penetration set in 2.4 if you're a blood elf.
Cast sequence macros are exactly as the name says, a sequence, when you hit it the first time it will cast the first spell, when you hit it next time it will cast the next one, etc, etc....
The timer on the reset means that after 10 seconds even if you didn't cast the last spell in the sequence, it will reset.
If you actually make a cast sequence like people are suggesting you would be able to just hit 1 button all day and just spam it rather than actually having to play.
Ah. I see, thanks for the explanation
Another noob question: after taking a look at 2.4 items, i've noticed the huge emphasis on haste. For a BE pally, is it worth sacrificing crit/hit for haste?Roughly how much haste rating will compensate for that 1% crit?
Yes, Armor Penetration is good when stacked but for blood elves haste is clearly better per itemization point. Seeing so much haste in our 2.4 gear, that's a good thing! There's no real reason to go for a stacked Armor Penetration set in 2.4 if you're a blood elf.
Clearly better?
I don't know. Armor Pen gets amazing when you get a lot of it.
hmm, the maths for this is very interesting. Most bosses in the game have either 7700 or 6200 armour. The spreadsheet assumes 7700 armour. Now with CoR/FF/Sunders, with tier 7 gear and standard other buffs on boss this means in terms of dps gain per itemisation point
For SoC, Str>Arm Pen>Haste
For SoB, Str>Haste>Arm Pen
However for bosses with 6200 armor (i'll let you change this i next version of sheet)
hmm, the maths for this is very interesting. Most bosses in the game have either 7700 or 6200 armour. The spreadsheet assumes 7700 armour. Now with CoR/FF/Sunders, with tier 7 gear and standard other buffs on boss this means in terms of dps gain per itemisation point
For SoC, Str>Arm Pen>Haste
For SoB, Str>Haste>Arm Pen
However for bosses with 6200 armor (i'll let you change this i next version of sheet)
For SoC, Arm Pen > Str > Haste
For SoB, Str=Arm Pen>Haste
Well, considering all bosses in Hyjal/3 out of 9 BT has 6200 - My armor pen fetish seems moderately valid.
Bell, would you mind including how much of a difference there is with the above four statements you made?
I also see somewhat of a problem. Armor Pen becomes better the more you have of it. I'm pretty sure it gains exponentially, not linearly. Which would mean at some point, it should out do everything until you remove all of a boss' armor. I think.
Well... like any exponential, probably not until you're riiight at the end. point for point at least.
With sunder, faerie fire and CoR, you're taking off 4010.. so from a 7700 boss.. down to 3690 armour. Judging by the OP of the boss armour value thread [RAID] Boss armor values (as Im too tired atm to do the math myself) thats going from around 42% reduction to 26% reduction.. if you manage to stack another 300~ ArmPen, you take that value to 24%
The initial 4k of armour penetration increases dmg take by 16%~
The extra 300 on top of that increased it by a further 2%
But yeh, start getting close to 0 armour, armour penetration begins to look super awesome. So dont forget to shout at your druids/locks for their debuffs next time you want to increase your effectiveness
With a 0.15 value of ArP and considering high end gear:
ArP equals Haste at boss armor(after gear+debuffs) around 2000.
ArP equals Strength at boss armor around 1000.
Looking at this, as I have been drooling over all the new haste gear since it's release.
I have never claimed to be great with numbers so hoping someone can shed more light on this...but am I wrong in thinking that ArP only impacts our damage from white melee and crusader strike? where as haste also increases the frequency (and thus amount) of SoB damage.
Just seems to me, since haste scales so much greater thorugh level, and with SoB scaling with your weapon, that that added SoB damage would outweigh whatever ArP does, as it has a finite limit.
With a 0.15 value of ArP and considering high end gear:
ArP equals Haste at boss armor(after gear+debuffs) around 2000.
ArP equals Strength at boss armor around 1000.
I assume thats excluding FF/Sunders/CoR? If these are both on, can add about 4k to those results. Though i'm actually getting value of about 6.5 and 6k respectively for ArP being better than Haste/Strength. (though very dependant on gear choice etc etc)
Just so you guys know for the analysis tool, the next analysis I plan to (try to) include is a tool which creates the perfect gear spread based per itemisation level and then calculats an "itemisation %" figure to work out how close to perfect that item actually is.
Looking at this, as I have been drooling over all the new haste gear since it's release.
I have never claimed to be great with numbers so hoping someone can shed more light on this...but am I wrong in thinking that ArP only impacts our damage from white melee and crusader strike? where as haste also increases the frequency (and thus amount) of SoB damage.
Just seems to me, since haste scales so much greater thorugh level, and with SoB scaling with your weapon, that that added SoB damage would outweigh whatever ArP does, as it has a finite limit.
You are correct in that ArP only affects melee and Crusader Strike. However, melee + CS usually equals melee + SoB percentage wise. From my latest substantial BT WWS melee + CS would equal 69% of my total damage. Melee + SoB would equal 68% of my damage. The only problem with ArP is having to stack it to see better results. As such, I'm trying to get more ArP gear myself. I have the Gurtogg legs, but still need [Cataclysm's Edge] and [Signet of Primal Wrath].
I assume thats excluding FF/Sunders/CoR? If these are both on, can add about 4k to those results. Though i'm actually getting value of about 6.5 and 6k respectively for ArP being better than Haste/Strength. (though very dependant on gear choice etc etc)
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
Yeah thats what i meant, and those numbers make sense and match with the results i'm getting give or take 500ish. As other gear etc has a big effect
With regard to SoB, is armor penetration still beating it out even when you take windfury into account? I'm curious if someone wants to model ArP vs Haste assuming full buffs, for 6200 and 7700 bosses to show if there's a point where the difference is negligible.
Those were including FF/Sunders/CoR. So on a boss with 6.6K armor, assuming FF/Sunders/CoR, you'll only need 600 Armor Penetration from gear to outvalue haste. Those were my results from rough calculations anyway. I'll double check with values from the spreadsheet.
If that is the case, then I am really close to this when Executioner proc. I am sitting at 516 according to the dps spread sheet. I am also curios to see how these numbers come out. I hear warriors talking all the time how they want more ArmPen. I guess I always thought it would affect us in the same way.
So far it's hard to base the Haste vs ArP value off the spread sheet because it has my taking a sizeable hit in DPS when I build a full Haste vs ArP set so I'm still trying some testing but getting mixed results.
So far it's hard to base the Haste vs ArP value off the spread sheet because it has my taking a sizeable hit in DPS when I build a full Haste vs ArP set so I'm still trying some testing but getting mixed results.
Even if I swap around weapons and enchants the spreadsheet always says Haste is under ArP so I'm not sure.
You'd need to use leather/mail to make a more accurate comparison probably if you're using a "which gear set is best" approach. I'm wondering if there's a more mathematical way to approach it, and rather than try and build a superior set of gear, to get into the nuts and bolts of is haste better than armor pen, regardless of how Blizzard has chosen to itemize loot.
02/26/08, 6:14 AM
