Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 103

Shalymar · 02/26/08, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gormal

You'd need to use leather/mail to make a more accurate comparison probably if you're using a "which gear set is best" approach. I'm wondering if there's a more mathematical way to approach it, and rather than try and build a superior set of gear, to get into the nuts and bolts of is haste better than armor pen, regardless of how Blizzard has chosen to itemize loot.

I am trying to compare the two using the spreadsheet and I noticed there is a lot of high end leather gear that has ArmPen on it.

Gormal · 02/26/08, 10:11 PM

There's also a lot of high-end leather gear loaded with hit rating, like [Midnight Chestguard]. For the purposes of this, it'd probably be best to ignore the T6 2-piece bonus. I haven't been able to get my Excel to work for a couple weeks now, so I'm pretty much useless.

Handled · 02/27/08, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Gormal

There's also a lot of high-end leather gear loaded with hit rating, like [Midnight Chestguard]. For the purposes of this, it'd probably be best to ignore the T6 2-piece bonus. I haven't been able to get my Excel to work for a couple weeks now, so I'm pretty much useless.

See that is just it, I have every piece of Haste related gear slotted and it's a DPS decrease over minimal ArP. This is why I don't see this big Haste push. I used Haste only for a long time but feel my DPS and longevity have both increased switching to ArP and 2pc T6.

• Anarkii · 02/27/08, 1:19 AM

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

Has any scryer paladin tested this on PTR? I'm specifically interested in the Arcane Might proc :
1) Is it affected by spell damage?
2) It can supposedly crit. Is it based on spell crit or melee crit?
3) Is it affected by Misery, Vengeance, Avenging Wrath etc?
4) Can the proc be fully/partially resisted?

DarKNecross · 02/27/08, 2:23 AM

Originally Posted by Anarkii

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

Has any scryer paladin tested this on PTR? I'm specifically interested in the Arcane Might proc :
1) Is it affected by spell damage?
2) It can supposedly crit. Is it based on spell crit or melee crit?
3) Is it affected by Misery, Vengeance, Avenging Wrath etc?
4) Can the proc be fully/partially resisted?

Looking the neck up on Wowhead (unless they've changed it recently?):

Originally Posted by Wowhead

For Exalted with Scryers, it procs an attack called Arcane Strike, which deals approximately 350-400 arcane damage. With a bit of testing, it seems to proc about once per fight. Visually, it creates a small spark on the enemy, and looks and sounds like the blood elf racial Mana Tap.

Edit: Arcane Strike can crit.

So I doubt it's affected by spell damage (which items are anymore?), and general assumptions lead you to believe it's spell crit, affected by Misery (not Vengeance, since that's only Holy damage) and other modifiers, and it should be resistable. Of course, that's just going off items that function very similarly.

gcbirzan · 02/27/08, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by Handled

I used Haste only for a long time but feel my DPS and longevity have both increased switching to ArP and 2pc T6.

Haste would give you some more mana back from more melee swings->more SoB procs, whereas armour penetration wouldn't.

• Avitus · 02/27/08, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by xellos

You are correct in that ArP only affects melee and Crusader Strike. However, melee + CS usually equals melee + SoB percentage wise. From my latest substantial BT WWS melee + CS would equal 69% of my total damage. Melee + SoB would equal 68% of my damage.

That's a really good way at looking at it, especially for those of us blessed with SoB.

My only issue with ArP has always been a theoretical one, rather than pratical:

Basically, if ArP is that good while it only affects ~70% of our attacks, how much better is it for warriors who pretty much share our loot table?

As said this is purely theoretical, but I feel it's a pretty silly mechanic. For example SoC only does 70% weapon damage since it's balanced around being an attack that completely ignores armor.

However with the latest itemisation you can almost fully mitigate boss armor with all your attacks as a warrior, hmm.

Prinsesa · 02/27/08, 6:40 AM

So I doubt it's affected by spell damage (which items are anymore?), and general assumptions lead you to believe it's spell crit, affected by Misery (not Vengeance, since that's only Holy damage) and other modifiers, and it should be resistable. Of course, that's just going off items that function very similarly.

For the sake of completeness, it would be probably affected by Improved Sanctity Aura and Avenging Wrath, since those affect all damage, as well as Curse of Shadow, since that increases Arcane damage.

Shalymar · 02/27/08, 11:02 AM

I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. The Hammer of Naaru was changed on the PTR.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9131/hotnru4.jpg

Quepaso · 02/27/08, 4:38 PM

Hey guys, first time poster but long time reader on this site, however this is my first time in the ret theorycrafting section. Looking to get some info from some of you gents

1) gear wise, how are my stats? (i.e. +hit, str/ap, crit, etc) do i need to focus more on something and less on something else?

2) My spec- i've seen many diff spec's, and i like mine b/c it seems to work well for PvP and PvE. Any confirmation/hey dumbass you're spec is @#$$ would be greatly appreciated

3) I'm an Alliance Human pally- from what i hear haste is more for B-elves? Also, i see alot of armor reduction gear which i always thought was more for dps warriors..should i invest in some of that gear? I have about 130 badges at my disposal....

4) My guild is 4/5 MH 4/9 BT currently, and i have very good gear sets for holy and protection, now im working on ret. Recently did a quick SSC run to get some peeps attuned and i was able to get 3rd on the dmg meter. The main reason im posting here is i want to be #1. If i have people in my raid (locks, arcane mages,BM hunters) who are very skilled and on top of their game, is it even plausable to be able to beat them in dmg as a ret pally? I understand i give a good dmg buff to my group with imp sanctity, as well as +3% to crit to everyone in the raid on a target...i just wanna know if i could win

Any help you fellas could give me would rock!

Thanks again,
QP

Kris · 02/27/08, 6:35 PM

Put a +12 agi + 3 crit dmg gem in the head socket, get Mongoose instead of Savagery, check Bellator's spreadsheet for possible upgrades in your range.

Vicadin · 02/27/08, 7:49 PM

It seems to me (and mind you, I have no hard math to back this up) that considering how close the SoB DPS comparison is between Cat's Edge and Torch of the Damned, that if you stack enough haste that the Torch should eventually exceed Cat's DPS numbers. Has anyone tested this out to find out if it's true? If so, how much haste would one need to stack in order for the Torch to beat out Cat's Edge?

I apologize in advance if I'm asking a question which has already been asked here, but sadly the 101 pages of responses is a bit daunting to sift through for an answer. The reason I ask is that I have the option of taking Cat's Edge when it drops, however, if the Torch would serve me better in the long run, then I would prefer to let someone else, for whom it would be a bigger upgrade, loot Cat's Edge and just wait for the Torch.

xellos · 02/27/08, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Vicadin

It seems to me...

Not quite sure where you're drawing your logic from. Whatever haste you add when you're swinging Torch will also be the same when you swing a CE. If Torch is going to average 1000 per swing and CE is going to average 1050 per swing, making the Torch swing faster isn't going to change anything. If anything, CE would benefit slightly more due to more haste since it's a higher dps weapon. An easy way to check this is to use Bellator's spreadsheet and manually change the haste values.

Vicadin · 02/27/08, 8:24 PM

I was basing my assumption off the the higher top end on the Torch combined with the slower speed, which tends to benefit more from haste (although admittedly, by a potentially miniscule amount), however, I guess I should just plugin the values to the spreadsheet and see what comes up, thanks!

• Theras · 02/27/08, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Vicadin

It seems to me (and mind you, I have no hard math to back this up) that considering how close the SoB DPS comparison is between Cat's Edge and Torch of the Damned, that if you stack enough haste that the Torch should eventually exceed Cat's DPS numbers. Has anyone tested this out to find out if it's true? If so, how much haste would one need to stack in order for the Torch to beat out Cat's Edge?

The opposite is true. Increasing your attack speed by 1% increases your white damage (and Seal of Blood damage, if you rolled the Master Race) by 1%, which will always favor the higher DPS weapon. Haste rating is weapon speed agnostic.

This is really easy to observe on the latest version of the spreadsheet. Load the pre-raid gear set and give it a Torch of the Damned. Cat's Edge comes out 4.66 DPS ahead. Then load the Tier 7 set that's loaded up with haste gear. Cat's Edge is 29.88 DPS ahead.

◊ Shalas · 02/27/08, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Vicadin

I was basing my assumption off the the higher top end on the Torch combined with the slower speed, which tends to benefit more from haste (although admittedly, by a potentially miniscule amount), however, I guess I should just plugin the values to the spreadsheet and see what comes up, thanks!

The only situation where a higher top end is inherently better is if your primary goal when gearing is to make your crits as big as possible at the cost of dps. Other than that, it's a completely meaningless number.

Prinsesa · 02/28/08, 1:26 AM

I haven't seen anyone talk about this yet. The Hammer of Naaru was changed on the PTR.

It's a nice change, but without any crit, its other contemporaries like the [Gorehowl] or the [Gladiator's Greatsword] still end up being better.

Here's hoping they change [The Oathkeeper] as well

• Avitus · 02/28/08, 1:54 AM

Originally Posted by Shalas

The only situation where a higher top end is inherently better is if your primary goal when gearing is to make your crits as big as possible at the cost of dps. Other than that, it's a completely meaningless number.

Or you're using SoC.

noth · 02/28/08, 2:58 AM

I was using Bellator's spreadsheet to look at glove upgrades, and the results kind of confuse me, so I'm hoping some kind folks can help me understand what I'm seeing.

Right now I'm wearing Vengeful Gladiator's gloves,, and Here's the values I'm getting for the crafted gloves next patch.

Hard Khorium Battlefists -1.23
Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets 0
Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix 5.16
Gloves of the Immortal Dusk 22.35

I don't understand why the leather crafted gloves are so much better than anything else, for me. Is the armor pen that great? It's not that I can't believe their an upgrade, it's the magnitude that has me nervous.

CaptBooyah · 02/28/08, 2:59 AM

For Exalted with Scryers, it procs an attack called Arcane Strike, which deals approximately 350-400 arcane damage. With a bit of testing, it seems to proc about once per fight. Visually, it creates a small spark on the enemy, and looks and sounds like the blood elf racial Mana Tap.

Edit: Arcane Strike can crit.

I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P

xellos · 02/28/08, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by noth

I was using Bellator's spreadsheet...

Armor pen is going to do more for you than haste is since you're an Alliance paladin, but the LW gloves are just nice in general. I believe they are more dps than the BS crafted ones using SoB too.

Prinsesa · 02/28/08, 3:31 AM

I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P

If Wowhead is to be believed, the Aldor proc is 200 AP for 10 seconds.

• Anarkii · 02/28/08, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by CaptBooyah

I have a sinking feeling that the aldor version of the buff is holy dmg =P

The Aldor version is a straight +200AP proc that lasts 10s

• Theras · 02/28/08, 4:43 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

If Wowhead is to be believed, the Aldor proc is 200 AP for 10 seconds.

If Wowhead is to be believed, the Scryer proc is 100 crit rating for 10 seconds. Except it isn't.

• Avitus · 02/28/08, 6:12 AM

No comments yet on the new Alchemist's Stones?

From world of raids:

At first glance, 54 crit rating doesn't sound like it can outdo any of my current PvE trinkets ([Darkmoon Card: Crusade] and [Berserker's Call]), though I guess some numbers need to be crunched. The extra mana would be very welcome on longer fights.

Personally I was hoping for an direct upgrade of the old [Alchemist's Stone] (item level 90) with just heavier stats.

(On a side note, damn that healing trinket is nice, I believe it's best in spot.)