Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 104

flyingtoastr · 01/17/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

My turn for a noobish question. Can you have a sharpening/weightstone on your weapon and still get the benefit of WF totem? I have been using sharpening/weightstones for a while and I ran out of them last night in BT, whereafter I saw a lot more <Windfury Attack>

Sharpening Stones overwrite a Windfury buff, so no you don't want to use them if you get the shaman. If you're stuck in a tank group or something though I could see use for them.

Originally Posted by Antiock

And just to get this thread back into reality a little....when a boss drops below 20%, do you guys try to weave Hammer of Wrath into your attacks? I know it resets the swing timer, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a dps increase if you used it immediately after an attack.

If you have the mana for it, HoW is a pretty sizable DPS increase. However, it does reset the swing timer, so you have to be careful to do it right after an autoswing so you push that back as little as possible. The fact remains it is the biggest mana sink Paladins have, so you have to be careful with it so that you don't blow too much mana and can't CS for the last 10% or so.

I honestly would like to see some additional utility added to the actual Judgement Spell, like making successful Judgements increase party damage by X% for 10 seconds. Just something to make it completely worthwhile to keep up a full Judgement cycle other than slightly higher personal DPS. It would be nice to get some uniqueness to the buff too, maybe armor penetration, critical strike bonus damage, haste rating... Lots of options there.

Saltycracker · 01/17/08, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

I honestly would like to see some additional utility added to the actual Judgement Spell, like making successful Judgements increase party damage by X% for 10 seconds. Just something to make it completely worthwhile to keep up a full Judgement cycle other than slightly higher personal DPS. It would be nice to get some uniqueness to the buff too, maybe armor penetration, critical strike bonus damage, haste rating... Lots of options there.

Im pulling for seal of blood, but I had the thought of more of a "Prismatic Seal" that joined light, wis and crusader into one judgement so you dont need other pallys to rejudge light and wis in case they get pushed off by other debuffs. Trivial, maybe.

I'm also liking the group AW buff. Maybe "Increases party damage by 6%" something like 30%/5 or something of that nature.

Shalymar · 01/17/08, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

As funny as it sounds, its a good idea. Even if you think of a different effect for a new pally synergy group-buff (haste sounds nice), im sure people would love getting their own pally wings!

Can you say Pally's version of Bloodlust FTW! I love the idea.

Avitus · 01/17/08, 2:49 PM

Sorry to say, but my experience with HoW spam, even with 4 set T6 bonus (+10% to HoW), is that it's completely useless, not only does it delay your swing timer, but in effect it delays your chances to SoC (due to that swing delay) too, which is a double penalty that's just not worth taking.

You're better off just continuing your rotation or spamming consecration if you want to blow your extra mana.

Makes me really wonder what they were thinking with that set bonus in the first place since you won't use T6 in pvp (and if you do, the benefit of that set bonus is very marginal) and in PvE it's beyond worthless... I'd trade it off for 10 str, or 1 str even, anything for that matter.

Compare to all other DPS classes, their set bonuses pretty much give them a flat ~5% DPS increase (warlocks, mages, rogues) or at least a significant buff to their main attack.

Theras · 01/17/08, 3:28 PM

Ideally I'd like to see the Tier 6 4-piece bonus steal the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] bonus. It's never a sign of good design when a best in slot PvE item is from PvP.

Still no luck finding a mob that's immune to Vindication and that won't stomp my face in.

flyingtoastr · 01/17/08, 4:11 PM

I agree that our 4 piece bonus is terrible. A nice 5% boost to CS or seals or something would have been nicer (and more in line with all the other DPS classes getting increased damage to their main combat attacks). But I digress.

Hammer of Wrath IV
440 Mana
665-735 damage
6 second CD

Ideal Situation:
Assuming you have unlimited mana and use it every 6 seconds, 3 stacks of Vengeance, JotC, 213 spell damage (5 pieces of T6), Sanctity Aura (with 2/2 Improved), 3/3 Crusade (active), 4-piece T6 bonus, and always hit.

Hammer of Wrath IV
Average Damage: 1294
DPM: 2.94
DPS: 215.67

Compared to Max Rank Consecration in the exact same situation:

Consecration VI
Average Damage (tic): 153
DPM: 1.85
DPS: 153

There are two things to remember from here though. First is that Hammer of Wrath is both capable of critting and takes your melee crit chance. This means your average paladin will be seeing about a third of his Hammers getting a critical, upping the actual DPS by a fairly good degree. The second thing to remember, and the most important, is that HoW does push back your swing timer. It is entirely possible that the extra DPS you gain from HoW is lost in the increased time on your swings, especially if you time it badly. A talent to remove the cast time to HoW would really be excellent for Paladin DPS though.

This of course isn't counting full or partial resists, since I have no real way to calculate the latter.

Cathmor · 01/17/08, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Theras

Ideally I'd like to see the Tier 6 4-piece bonus steal the [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] bonus. It's never a sign of good design when a best in slot PvE item is from PvP.

Still no luck finding a mob that's immune to Vindication and that won't stomp my face in.

Really? You'd want a reduction to Hammer of Justice cooldown for a PvE set bonus? I'm no expert on tier 6 mobs, but I operate under the impression that most enemies in raid instances are immune to stuns. I'd like either of the t4 ret bonuses... or hell, even the t6 prot 4 piece bonus. Most any of the other set bonuses that don't apply to holy or prot-specific abilities would do.

• zeidrich · 01/17/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cathmor

Really? You'd want a reduction to Hammer of Justice cooldown for a PvE set bonus? I'm no expert on tier 6 mobs, but I operate under the impression that most enemies in raid instances are immune to stuns. I'd like either of the t4 ret bonuses... or hell, even the t6 prot 4 piece bonus. Most any of the other set bonuses that don't apply to holy or prot-specific abilities would do.

He means the +5% damage to crusader strike. The bonus specific to the gauntlets. Not the 4-piece bonus of the gladiator's set (since hammer of wrath is crap, and CS is used every cooldown).

In fact, I would venture to say that the 4 piece PvE bonus would really be more at home on a PvP set.

• frmorrison · 01/17/08, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Sorry to say, but my experience with HoW spam, even with 4 set T6 bonus (+10% to HoW), is that it's completely useless, not only does it delay your swing timer, but in effect it delays your chances to SoC (due to that swing delay)

If you use HoW like Slam (use right after a swing), the dps lose from the reset of the Swing timer is not much.

It still is marginal but a gain, assuming you use a swing timer.

Avitus · 01/17/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

If you use HoW like Slam (use right after a swing), the dps lose from the reset of the Swing timer is not much.

It still is marginal but a gain, assuming you use a swing timer.

I know about slam timing since I have a warrior too

The gain you're theorizing about, sounds more to me like a "what if batman and superman had a baby" sort of scenario, possible if you stretch your imagination, but realistically with the low spelldamage on retri gear, lag, delaying of swing timer which causes a double penalty of delaying white as well as SoC procs (as well as WF procs, triple penalty if you will), clipping with GCD of other abilities... need I go on?

Simply not worth it and in no way ever worth justifying the laughable T6 4 set "bonus".

Frankly I find the set bonus a bit insulting, it just shows how misinformed even the devs are about how this spec works.

little_ramona · 01/17/08, 11:59 PM

First-time poster here. Please forgive me for any breach of forum-ettiquette. I would also like to apologise if the following post has been posted earlier, I haven't read all 63 pages yet.

What I am looking for is some kind of at-a-glance system for comparing ret gear, similar to the Tank Points mod. As a PvP ret pally pre-BC I used the following system:

Str = 1 point
Int = 1
Stam = 1
Agi = 0.5
1% crit = 10

...then compare the totals of the different items (obviously). This system worked well for me and was very easy to calculate (however, I do think I under-rated agi/crit and over-rated int).

What systems do you all use? Is there a mod around that will do the work for you? TY and peace.

Avitus · 01/18/08, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by little_ramona

What systems do you all use? Is there a mod around that will do the work for you? TY and peace.

Use this spreadsheet: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

You'll find your personal "Strength Equivalency" values at the top of the first page after you configure the gear/raid buffs to match yours.

little_ramona · 01/18/08, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Use this spreadsheet: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

You'll find your personal "Strength Equivalency" values at the top of the first page after you configure the gear/raid buffs to match yours.

Thanks! Time to confront my fear of spreadsheets.

Antiock · 01/18/08, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by little_ramona

Thanks! Time to confront my fear of spreadsheets.

As spreadsheets go, this one is very well made and extremely easy to use. I've used spreadsheets for other classes, and never seen one I liked as much as this.

Theras · 01/18/08, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Ideal Situation:
Assuming you have unlimited mana and use it every 6 seconds, 3 stacks of Vengeance, JotC, 213 spell damage (5 pieces of T6), Sanctity Aura (with 2/2 Improved), 3/3 Crusade (active), 4-piece T6 bonus, and always hit.

Hammer of Wrath IV
Average Damage: 1294
DPM: 2.94
DPS: 215.67

Compared to Max Rank Consecration in the exact same situation:

Consecration VI
Average Damage (tic): 153
DPM: 1.85
DPS: 153

Using a plate-only optimal DPS set like you did yields the following breakdown for your other actions:

White damage: 585 DPS
Seal of Command damage: 311 DPS
Windfury damage: 120 DPS

So that's 508 damage that's guaranteed to be lost to Hammer of Wrath cast time, with flawless timing. I'm also going to assume that you have 40% crit chance fully buffed, so that bumps up Hammer of Wrath's gross damage to 1825.

Using those numbers, the point to which you can delay before Hammer of Wrath deals less damage than using Consecration is 0.393 seconds. That includes both latency and reaction time. To put it in perspective, I lose about 0.2 to 0.3 seconds per cast to latency on my Mage when I rapidly hammer the Frostbolt button; that leaves less than a tenth of a second of wiggle room to ensure that Hammer of Wrath is an effective use of a cooldown.

However, all of this math is assuming that you have the four piece Tier 6 set bonus. If you don't have the set bonus, the point to which you can delay your cast is 0.230 seconds after your swing, which is impossible given my very normal North American latency.

Conclusion: Hammer of Wrath is only worthwhile if the following two conditions are met:

You are playing from the server room in Irvine California.
Your secret identity is Barry Allen.