Ret - Warrior
Prot - Warrior (with some consideration for paladin specific items through badges or a focus on different stats)
Holy - Shaman (many shaman items have crit, haste, and mp5, all the stuff we use as holy as well)
I dont think its that far off, especially from a BE point of view.
It is disappointing that command isnt getting fixed until 2.4.
Ret paladins can wear mail/leather hunter/rogue gear as well. That hasn't stopped Blizzard from changing the itemization for Ret.
Holy wearing shaman mail is no fix. Holy paladins being balanced around shaman mail gear sounds even more ridiculous when we currently have custom-made healing plate for the spec.
The blizzcast makes it sound like Blizzards wants to have universal stat scaling for all specs of paladins. That's a very good thing, and I hope it goes into the game ASAP.
Regarding the spreadsheet, I would like to request the addition of the +hit food buff from Spicy Hot Talbuk located at the bottom of the Character tab (Pots category). As it stands, the only option available is the +strength food buff. It seems to me that if one could derive greater than 20 strength (or an equivalent attack power) through use of other gems or item choices while maintaining 95 hit (or 142 without precision) from use of the food buff, this would improve the individual's DPS output so long that they continually renew the buff.
My sincere thanks go to everyone in this community, especially the author of the spreadsheet. The work hours pass much faster when there's something to theorycraft about.
Okay, i got a question about the Bellator Spreadsheet.
First, i never ever used Microsoft Excel nor i ever had to play around a Excel Sheet in my life. I downloaded the Free Microsoft Excel Viewer 2003 from the Official Microsoft Website but when i open the file it doesnt seem like i can click anywhere to make selection of gears, or even push a button to run the function attached to it.(button from the spreadsheet not the software). All i can do is select square in the table.
First off, the spreadsheet is great. However, I am concerned with some of the results I'm getting (specifically valuing +hit items).
I input all my items and the stats show correctly. I am a 5/8/48 Retribution spec and have 3% hit from Precision and a total of 97 hit rating on my gear. This should put me above the hit cap and the spreadsheet should de-value hit rating.
However, in the Item Calc portion of the spreadsheet, it appears that it is still valuing hit rating. For example, it shows Blood-Stained Pauldrons to be an almost 11dps upgrade whereas the Pauldrons of the Wardancer are only a 3dps upgrade. The only way that could happen is if the spreadsheet is still valuing the +hit on the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.
However, when I add one more +hit item (say upgrade Greaves of the Bloodwarder to Legguards of Endless Rage, which adds 19 hit rating) it changes the preference to show the Pauldrons of the Wardancer over the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.
Now - what am I doing wrong? Am i correct you need 9% hit (95 hit rating with Precision) versus level 73 mobs? Or am I missing something here?
Considering I am going to be spending dkp in T6 content soon, I'd like to nail down this confusion.
You are correct that the hit cap is 95 with 3/3 precision. Is it possible that the spreadsheet doesn't see you at the hit cap, due to the wrong item selected or perhaps a +hit socket bonus you are not hitting due to the spreadsheets socketing? If that doesn't work just try selecting socket til hit cap and it should correctly value gear with +hit on the item analysis.
Okay, i got a question about the Bellator Spreadsheet.
First, i never ever used Microsoft Excel nor i ever had to play around a Excel Sheet in my life. I downloaded the Free Microsoft Excel Viewer 2003 from the Official Microsoft Website but when i open the file it doesnt seem like i can click anywhere to make selection of gears, or even push a button to run the function attached to it.(button from the spreadsheet not the software). All i can do is select square in the table.
Any tips?
You can't use Bellator's sheet in Excel Viewer, because it requires that you change fields and input information to make its calculations. Excel Viewer is read only.
Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman
However, in the Item Calc portion of the spreadsheet, it appears that it is still valuing hit rating. For example, it shows Blood-Stained Pauldrons to be an almost 11dps upgrade whereas the Pauldrons of the Wardancer are only a 3dps upgrade. The only way that could happen is if the spreadsheet is still valuing the +hit on the Blood-Stained Pauldrons.
When the item calculator runs on that slot, it replaces your [Justicar Shoulderplates] (with 19 hit rating on them) with [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] (with no hit rating on them). So when it evaluates the Wardancers, you're 17 rating below the cap, making it a marginal upgrade and making the [Blood-stained Pauldrons] a significant upgrade. You'll need to reach the hit cap through other slots for it to evaluate the Wardancers favorably.
Regarding the spreadsheet, I would like to request the addition of the +hit food buff from Spicy Hot Talbuk located at the bottom of the Character tab (Pots category). As it stands, the only option available is the +strength food buff. It seems to me that if one could derive greater than 20 strength (or an equivalent attack power) through use of other gems or item choices while maintaining 95 hit (or 142 without precision) from use of the food buff, this would improve the individual's DPS output so long that they continually renew the buff.
My sincere thanks go to everyone in this community, especially the author of the spreadsheet. The work hours pass much faster when there's something to theorycraft about.
+hit food will be in the next version
Originally Posted by Theras
When the item calculator runs on that slot, it replaces your [Justicar Shoulderplates] (with 19 hit rating on them) with [Pauldrons of the Wardancer] (with no hit rating on them). So when it evaluates the Wardancers, you're 17 rating below the cap, making it a marginal upgrade and making the [Blood-stained Pauldrons] a significant upgrade. You'll need to reach the hit cap through other slots for it to evaluate the Wardancers favorably.
The latest version of the sheet is actually slightly more sophisticated. When you the analysis replaces Justicar with Pauldrons of the Wardancer, it sees you are below the hit cap and re-gems your gear to make you hit capped and then does the analysis.
Originally Posted by The Truculent Gentleman
Now - what am I doing wrong? Am i correct you need 9% hit (95 hit rating with Precision) versus level 73 mobs? Or am I missing something here?
You're doing nothing wrong. What you're describing actuall makes sens. Think of it this way:-
Situation 1). You have 9% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Since the Justicar shoulders have +hit, when you remove them your hit % reduces to lets say 8%. Thus replacing then with Bloodstained shoulders means that the +hit on this item is contributing to make you hit capped.
Situation 2) You have 11% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Without the shoulders you still have >9% hit, thus if you replace them with Bloodstained, the +hit from the Bloodstained is not contributing in any way since you are hit capped and the +hit is wasted (in upgrade terms)
Thus Bloodstained will prove a better upgrade in situation 1 than in situation 2 accounting for the difference you are seeing.
I have a few question pertaining to how to be more useful in raid.
First, i have read this entire thread, I have learned so much yet i feel like just knowing isn't helping me contribute as much as i could in my guilds attempts.
Please give honest assessments of this spec, I had a hard time last night Staying alive in ZA OTing the gauntlet adds with my current spec, i was hoping to gain a little more threat and survivability with this build.
It seems that i really have found a class and spec that i can play for hours on end and not get bored with, And my guild/raid leaders have been very impressed with what i can do on some fights, (mostly thanks to you guys and your Advice) i have gotten pretty good at timing my rotations so that CS is used ever CD and i never miss a AA without blood up, in short boss fights I have started weaving in Rank 6 consecrations ever few rotations and my DPS in the last Week has seen about a 10-12% increase, I also just got [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] however, it seems that in 25s i am still falling behind on complicated fights, is there something i can do to help the Raid more on these types of fights, where its not just straight up DPS ?
The latest version of the sheet is actually slightly more sophisticated. When you the analysis replaces Justicar with Pauldrons of the Wardancer, it sees you are below the hit cap and re-gems your gear to make you hit capped and then does the analysis.
You're doing nothing wrong. What you're describing actuall makes sens. Think of it this way:-
Situation 1). You have 9% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Since the Justicar shoulders have +hit, when you remove them your hit % reduces to lets say 8%. Thus replacing then with Bloodstained shoulders means that the +hit on this item is contributing to make you hit capped.
Situation 2) You have 11% hit and Justicar Shoulders. Without the shoulders you still have >9% hit, thus if you replace them with Bloodstained, the +hit from the Bloodstained is not contributing in any way since you are hit capped and the +hit is wasted (in upgrade terms)
Thus Bloodstained will prove a better upgrade in situation 1 than in situation 2 accounting for the difference you are seeing.
This makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining, and thank you for all the work on the spreadsheet!
I have a few question pertaining to how to be more useful in raid.
First, i have read this entire thread, I have learned so much yet i feel like just knowing isn't helping me contribute as much as i could in my guilds attempts.
Please give honest assessments of this spec, I had a hard time last night Staying alive in ZA OTing the gauntlet adds with my current spec, i was hoping to gain a little more threat and survivability with this build.
It seems that i really have found a class and spec that i can play for hours on end and not get bored with, And my guild/raid leaders have been very impressed with what i can do on some fights, (mostly thanks to you guys and your Advice) i have gotten pretty good at timing my rotations so that CS is used ever CD and i never miss a AA without blood up, in short boss fights I have started weaving in Rank 6 consecrations ever few rotations and my DPS in the last Week has seen about a 10-12% increase, I also just got [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] however, it seems that in 25s i am still falling behind on complicated fights, is there something i can do to help the Raid more on these types of fights, where its not just straight up DPS ?
I think you have to many points in protection, and not enough in Retribution. Consider this spec: Talent Calculator
With that spec I was a successful OT for ZA Gauntlet, a Hydross add, Morogrim's murloc adds, the hunter pet on Karathress, tanking all of A'lar's phoenix adds, and all the small adds at Solarian. In addition, it allowed me to be competitive on dps when I was able to dps. In general it is a trash-tanking OT spec, but you won't be able to tank any bosses with it.
Edit - I am assuming you have a tanking set you are tanking with, rather than trying to tank in Retribution gear. I did all the above with T4/Badge/ZA level tanking gear.
The largest piece of advice i would say is focus on whatever your current role is - if you are dps'ing, focus 100% on that. Stopping to try to cast a heal is ineffective in retribution gear and really cuts your dps contribution. Trust your healers. Outside of situations where you might be cleansing raid members while CS/Judgement is on cooldown or being part of a BoF rotation on the MT during Vashj, or BoP help on Zul'jin P4, when you are dps go balls-out. That means haste potions, ideally a enhancement shaman, etc. A 'complicated' fight usually involves alot of movement, and these are actually fights Ret paladins can do well at. Our damage abilities are burst oriented - if you can run in, CS/Judgement, move out, back in when their CD is up, you can still maintain solid dps.
Edit on talent spec: You are human, so you would drop 1 point from divine strength for SoC.
Edit on talent spec: You are human, so you would drop 1 point from divine strength for SoC.
She's a BElf, altho I wonder myself why you wouldn't have SoC just in case you go up against another fight like Prince.
I kind of like a spec with imp RF just for the OT usefulness altho losing points in divine str just seems like a huge waste of potential dps? Any mana regenning abilities are usually godsends so I always stick with Benediction/Sanc Judgements so I can use haste pots instead of mana pots to make sure my dps stays constant.
If your tanks are really good and you have 3ish paladins in raids, dropping 2-3 points in fanaticism for something else isn't such a bad idea... it may hurt in aggro sensitive fights if you have trouble staying below tanks already.
TK is such a bitch to overall paladin dps though.. you sit on your hands for most of alar... a lot of the mobs whirlwind and there are lots of aoe mobs around the place that make casters really shine (conscerate + wings makes up here a little). Not to mention with average tanks on VR, you'll probably pull aggro around 30% and die a horrible death =]
i've found SSC to be a better show of a melee dpsers performance with less aoe and more single targets that dont move or require you to move when casters dont have to.
WTB a few more talent points to be more versatile while still maintaining a solid dps build =]
She's a BElf, altho I wonder myself why you wouldn't have SoC just in case you go up against another fight like Prince.
I was bouncing back and forth with SoC i dont really go to kara much anymore. Prince is not an issue, SoC (rank 1) is extremely useful solo though.
I think you have to many points in protection, and not enough in Retribution. Consider this spec:
Talent Calculator
While the spec is a little more unconventional, i never really liked 5 points in BoM over benediction, Ill be replacing the last few pieces of my "Paladin" gear so i will have basically Base mana, anything i can do to increase its longevity is a plus.
The largest piece of advice i would say is focus on whatever your current role is - if you are dps'ing, focus 100% on that. Stopping to try to cast a heal is ineffective in retribution gear and really cuts your dps contribution. Trust your healers. Outside of situations where you might be cleansing raid members while CS/Judgement is on cooldown or being part of a BoF rotation on the MT during Vashj, or BoP help on Zul'jin P4, when you are dps go balls-out. That means haste potions, ideally a enhancement shaman, etc. A 'complicated' fight usually involves alot of movement, and these are actually fights Ret paladins can do well at. Our damage abilities are burst oriented - if you can run in, CS/Judgement, move out, back in when their CD is up, you can still maintain solid dps.
I whole heartedly agree, however, Since getting my new toy off zuljin i have been demoted to the (not-so-hot 2nd ZA group) and the OT( a warrior) is a little child who doesn't take instruction or criticism well, My contribution DPS wise is not the issue, if i didn't have to AOE tank the Adds, i would be 1st, (unless we take our resident Elemental shamans) the problem is if i focus on 100% dps we wipe because the other people are dunderheads.... This is slowly changing but they are so young its hard to coach them. So the elder guild members are left to pick up the slack. This is PAINFULLY apparent in 25s. Our situation is such that we cannot replace these people if we wish to even see the 25s right now.
What are you stats when you're tanking the gauntlet adds? When I do this I usually throw my tanking gear on so the warlocks can just seed spam.
I have nearly 12k hp in ret gear fully buffed, and about 15k in my tank gear and about 480 defense WITHOUT anticipation, we typically run with a good healing core so even if (for example) i had 4 warriors, and like 20 eagles on me while the rest of the raid works on the elites, i can usually stay up as long as they are all in front of me, and by the time the elites are dead they just AOE the eagles down, this is pretty typical, but with my 'current' build this is difficult because initial agro on the packs is hard to get when you have priests and shamans popping chain/COH and Pom/ES on people just as the fight starts(again the old people suffer the ignorance of the young)
Thanks a lot for your suggestions, I'm going to try and work a few more bugs out of my spec and I'll come back with the results after the next ZA. ciao
PoJ is semi-replacable by a boot enchant and I don't remember any serious spell damage 3% avoidance would give you. For the ret, you could drop vindication for one more in deflection, but that's a lot of JoW mana return you'd be missing out on. I'm also assuming you have another pally in the raid for BoK. Not sure how much damage shield spec would save you, so there's a build with and one without it.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.....I'm also assuming you have another pally in the raid for BoK.
i like that build i may use that and build on it, Thanks.
The BoK is an issue i played with a few weeks back and since many of our healers are core from a few years ago they didn't re roll paladins, we have about 4 paladins who raid regularly, and i usually ended up the ONLY paladin in 10s, recently however we have had a lot more activity out of a few more paladins, so i feel i can drop BoK again. my current build is pretty cookie cutter for utility/DPS.
I have been searching this thread for some time now and have failed to find anything on proper gemming for 2.3 ret build. What gems should i use for my gear? (pve and pvp)
It could be ported to a web page, but someone is/was working on porting it to Rawr.
I'm working on it, like I posted a couple of pages back. Rawr will offer far more functionality to support it than a webpage could hope to. I didn't see any responses to it, so I haven't posted any updates here recently. But if I can get a few people willing to test an early alpha version, reply here or PM me.
Edit : Just to clarify, I'm not exactly porting the spreadsheet to Rawr. I'm using most of the maths in the spreadsheet to model Paladin DPS. Might seem like a difference in wordings, but my purpose is to make an accurate Rawr model that references the maths used in the spreadsheet, not to just port the spreadsheet itself.
i am also having trouble using the spreadsheet to gem and enchant the gear. I'm using excel 2007 but when i click on teh button it just highlights the button w/ a surrounding croping square. Am i not using the right excel? I'd really like to get the most out of the spreadsheet but i can't use some of the more important functions imo. None of the buttons that we r supposed to click seem to b working for me when i click them? U guys know what could b going wrong, help would b greatly appreciated. I'm trying to add some craftable items to compare that were not on the item lists. It just bugs the crap out of me that i can't use these great functions.
About the hit rating btw: It's 96 with precision, not 95. Raided with 95 yesterday, and I remember one miss on Morogrim. I'm not sure if there was a wws, if I can find one I'll post it here.
I'm working on it, like I posted a couple of pages back. Rawr will offer far more functionality to support it than a webpage could hope to. I didn't see any responses to it, so I haven't posted any updates here recently. But if I can get a few people willing to test an early alpha version, reply here or PM me.
Edit : Just to clarify, I'm not exactly porting the spreadsheet to Rawr. I'm using most of the maths in the spreadsheet to model Paladin DPS. Might seem like a difference in wordings, but my purpose is to make an accurate Rawr model that references the maths used in the spreadsheet, not to just port the spreadsheet itself.
Out of curiosity do you know if there a Mac client being developed for Rwar or is it Windows exclusive?
EDIT: Found it in the Rwar thread, never mind.
EDIT 2: If I can get the CrossOver thing working (so it will run on my computer) I'll be happy to test the program out.
Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/03/08 at 11:31 AM.
02/29/08, 1:13 PM
