Ok, this is kinda off topic, but I was wondering what you guys thought about ret pally leveling? I have this guy thats telling me its a poj>crusade, I believe that 2 points into poj and 3 points into crusade is worth getting, although this pally is saying 1 point into crusade and 3 points into poj.

PoJ is better than crusade for anything non-raid simply because you spend more time running than you do fighting. Think of it this way: if a build with full PoJ and no Crusade gets you to a mob 1 second faster than a build with Crusade and no PoJ, the Crusade build would need to spend 97 seconds to catch up in damage for the 1 extra second the PoJ build gets at the beginning.

First off, this is my first time posting on these boards, so if I do something wrong, I apologize in advance.

Second, I've looked everywhere in this thread, and either I'm missing something completely obvious (which is probably the case) or it just hasn't been stated yet.

I'm looking for stat weighting, similar to the ones that are in the Enhancement Shaman thread (Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I). Is there a standard stat weighting for ret paladins?

I'm under the assumption that our weighting is similar to the enhance weightings, but with more emphasis on AP/Str and less on Crit/Agil since only Vengeance procs off crit and with 30 second refresh we really don't need much crit to keep Vengeance up.

Can someone point me in the right direction or something?

Hell yeah!


Anyway, and on a completly unrelated topic: What about that 6.5 second CS guys?
I mean, seriously, what are the fights where you manage to hit every 6 or 6.5 secs with your CS? I've been raiding through SSC / TK / Bt last week, and there's pretty much no fight where I can achieve that.
Every fight, but for Teron (where the "burst him out, burst him out" aspect of the fight kinda freaked me out and made me fuck my rotations up) has its dps downtimes. On naj I'll be picking a spine, on gurtogg I will move for bloodboils, on al'ar, well, I hardly can keep judgements up, on Solarian same thing, and so on, and so on.
So I was curious. Is that 6.5sec CS just an ideal value, something you try to achieve knowing on most fights you won't, or do you guys really manage to get close to it?


edit: some wws, I never get under 8sec between each CS.
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People can get a 6.5 second CS via using a cooldown mod to help remind them to use the ability, as well as using a smart rotations using 9 second judgments.

Once you get more familiar and comfortable with encounters, you should be able to focus more on CS.


To the person asking for standard stat weighting for ret paladins, the ret spreadsheet helps with that via giving you the weights in the field "Strength Equivalency". If you want it in a 1.0=str scale, just take the numbers and divide.

For example, if you got AP = 2.2, then divide 1/2.2 = 0.45 to get a value for attack power.

Is there a way to limit the gem choises for Spreetsheet?

Atm its using epic quality gem but i cannot buy them. I will be using blue quality gems or heroic epics.

Is there a way to limit it so that i calculates things acording to that?

So I have been messing with Bellator's spreadsheet as well as Rawr and since these programs are now advanced enough to measure hit cap ect I was wondering if someone could come up with the absolute 100% best gear setup including 2.4 gear for ret paladins.

The reason is I am at the level where all loot is available to me. I'm trying to get the best gear setup I can so that I can roll on the right gear. But it seems i tell my guild 3 items for me that are the most important and as soon as I get one of them and plug it in the spreadsheet flips around and shows other pieces of my finished gear as not being best in slot. A straight up list of best set of gear to have in combination would be great :p

edit: As for bugs or wrong input Bellator's spreadsheet looked perfect except for spelling errors on item names.
Rawr has some bugs tho. Vengeful hands dont have the 5% CS buff on them so they are actually ranked under t5 quite often for damage. I also noticed that it is constantly putting hit gear as best in slot even when I already have 100 hit rating and have told it that I have 3/3 precision. Also I would like it if there was a way to check if I have the gems to make my meta work other than just counting gems over and over every time I change gear.

edit2: So I came up with what I think might be the very best gear setup there is that has you end up being perfectly hitcapped.

[Helm of the Illidari Shatterer]
[Choker of Serrated Blades]
[Lightbringer Shoulderbraces]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Lightbringer Breastplate]
[Furious Shackles]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets]
[Plans: Red Belt of Battle]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Dreadboots of the Legion]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring][Band of the Eternal Champion][Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Berserker's Call][Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Torch of the Damned]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]

Does anyone see any pieces that should be switched up for a human paladin with command? This is strictly pre2.4 gear. It's my goal before 2.4
This ends someone with 104 hit rating. Any better gear choices to lower that to around 95?

All of those will be implemented. I just started working on it last week
Edit : It certainly doesn't select hit gear as best in slot for me blindly, but I'll put up a more complete version later this week including many new features instead of doing small fixes.

Overall I'm quite impressed. I can't wait to see where it goes.

Also another question I've had, is there a certain point from stacking armor penetration that makes CE beat Torch for alliance or makes executioner the best pve dps enchant?

Sorry to pollute the thread with this, but why does the melee group move for bloodboils? We never use that, and rotate with 3 ranged groups, so the melee can focus 100%. (However we might be slightly threat-capped from time to time). Not really an issue however.

And to bellator, keep the work with the spreadsheet up. Great resource, someone should try to convert it into a website however, for those who dont have access to excel.

Because the melee is threat-capped from time to time.

RoS, Mother if you don't get ported, Council, Anetheron, Azgalor.

Right now I don't see a way to limit what is being used, but you can change the gems to the blue ones.

Here is how you change that gems being used in the dps spread sheet. Find the tab which has the Macros section in it. I am using Office Excel 2007, so for me it is under the View tab on the top and the Macro section is all the way to the right. Click on view Macros and pick the macro “Socket_Str” from the list and click edit. This will bring up the Microsoft Visual Basic editor for this button. Here you can edit any of the gems and change for example the “10 Str” gem to the “8 Str” gem.

You can also edit the hit gems in the same manner by finding the macro which has the hit gems in them and click edit.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

I'm at work so I can't use the spreadsheet to check theoretical DPS from this, but here is some napkin math.

There are already a few best-in-slot (or very close to) items with armor penetration on them.
[Cataclysm's Edge] is a good 335 armor penetration.
[Leggings of Divine Retribution] have 350 armor penetration.
[Choker of Serrated Blades] is another 175.
[Signet of Primal Wrath] is 126.

Combined those add up to 986 penetration, or 1826 with executioner up.

Assuming your boss has 4000 armor (27.47% reduction) after debuffs you will be getting:

Without Executioner up:

Armor: 3014
Damage reduction: 22.21%
Difference: 5.26%

With Executioner up:

Armor: 2174
Damage Reduction: 17.07%
Difference: 10.4%

In addition there are numerous sidegrade armor penetration items, such as [Grips of Silent Justice], [Madness of the Betrayer] (1 PPM, no internal CD, proc on specials) and [Stormrage Signet Ring]. Using the ring and gloves in addition to the other items up top add up to 1287 total passive armor penetration, 2427 with both the trinket and Executioner up.

With everything

Armor: 1573
Damage Reduction: 12.97%
Difference: 14.50%

I can't run a sim with the point where mongoose and executioner trade places right now, but its pretty safe to say executioner is going to be on top even only using a couple of the pieces above.

% reduction = ( Armor / ( Armor + 10557.3 ) ) * 100 is the formula I'm using by the by.

And it is worth mentioning that lamost nothing on SWP gear has penetration, everything is shoved into that godawful haste.

Minor point of interest toastr... from what I understand, after the debuffs my raid uses on a fight like teron (imp expose armor, curse of reck, and faerie fire) the boss is at only 1800 armor for the raid. in that case, its important to be careful that you don't pass 0 armor with max armor pen, or you're wasting the stat.

Hey now, some of us like that haste stat, and I know that all of us are rejoicing at the generous amounts of expertise on the new items.

Rawr: Got a lot of fixing/polishing/enhancements done in the last 24 hours This should be able to answer all of the common questions pretty easily.

Play around with the boss armor value(in options tab) and stack/unstack Armor Penetration gear and watch these 4 charts:
1. Comparison:Items:Mainhand
2. Comparison:Enchants:Mainhand
3. Comparison:Custom:Item Budget
4. Options:Stat Graph

Note that for charts 3 and 4, the evaluation of (adding) stats is done considering your current gear and buffs.

Besides those features, the changes in this version are :
1. The RED meta bonus calculated correctly (The requirements are still not enforced yet)
2. The S3 gloves bonus calculated correctly
3. Values of Libram of Avengement and Divine Judgement will be correctly evaluated. LoDJ is still considered under SoB, that'll be fixed in a later build.
4. All the talent choices should now be working properly
5. Blood Frenzy debuff should be working properly
6. The race-specific base stats are properly handled now.
7. Fixed bugs with SoC

Up next:
1. Fixing any bugs found
2. Building a complete itemlist cache including 2.4 items
3. Considering Set bonuses

Yeah the screenshot is for SoC and I have a toggle.

I am downloading this now. I will test it out this evening and let you know if I find any bugs. It looks awesome so far. Thanks for taking the time to work on this as well as Bellator for creating the dps spread sheet.

You have very close with what I run with right now difference being that I use a different Neck/Cloak/Libram I would say you have it pretty well hammered out for the best items until 2.4.

I'm getting some weird-ass stat displays from Rawr. Like for example, it thinks I have 12% to hit in gear that's actually just shy of 9%.

I was just taking the average "medium" armor boss with 8000 armor base. Between 5x Sunder (-2600), Faerie Fire (-610) and CoR (-800), your boss is losing 4010 armor (rounded to 4000 because it takes up less napkins). I also didn't include Improved Expose Armor because I forgot that it is better than sunder (oops?). Hang on a sec and I'll do numbers with the -3075 from that (I think).

I haven't seen a list of every boss in BT/Hyjal and their armor values yet, but of course reducing armor past 0 is useless. For most bosses though I don't think it is possible to get them that low without seriously gimping other stats (Teron is considered a squishy if I remember correctly).

Silly Blood Elves.

EDIT: Ok, assuming a boss with a base of 8000 armor with Faerie Fire, CoR, and 5-point Expose Armor (improved) you're looking at a base of 3515 armor (24.98% reduction). Assuming the first scenario (986 passive penetration, 1826 with executioner up) you will be looking at:

Without Executioner up

Armor: 2529
Damage Reduction: 19.33%
Difference: 5.65%

With Executioner up

Armor: 1689
Damage Reduction: 13.79%
Difference: 11.19%

My plan involves the choker of endless nightmares & the cloak of darkness instead of the cloak & neck you've chosen... far as I can tell from my personal situation, the serrated blades is a downgrade from my current pendant of the perilous, and with an epic gem I can't beat my cloak of darkness.

edit: this is in response to hawaiisb's loot list, by the way, sorry