grover

Some numbers from the 2.3 ptr:

792 AP 0 spell damage max rank JotC and using a [Shortsword]
Average CS = 171 against blasted lands mob with 24% damage reduction.

171/(1-0.24) = 1.2 * 2.6 + ( 792 / 14 ) * 2.4 + 219 * X
X = 0.39
Close enough to 40%.

 

powerbello

so i'm levelling a paladin, an alt so going for retry no brainer.
i started as bs, cuz i was looking for skillherald. then i turned for lionheart, i think that's better for pve raiding. now i'm dubious again. i am wandering if it's the case to go armorsmith for imba chest and take khorium champion or singing crystal axe.

so this is due to the fact that i won't have much chances to get vortexes as i won't be able to go retry in 25 men raids. so i would have to stop to t2 weapons for some time. then despair would be better i think, and that's quite obtainable.

also bulwark is much better than exile, and the latter is a bit rare. also only 2 vortexes are easier than 5^^. so i thought to go for bulwark+khorium champion rather than lionheart+(maybe)exile. so first question.

khorium champion or singing crystal axe?
the former has a realy imba proc, if it would be 1ppm it would rock.
singing crystal axe is 37% faster attacks for 10 sec so 1 more swing per proc.
125 str = 250 ap (18 dps) for 30 secs = 540 without procs
1 swing = 1k dmg (roughly) again withot proc.
procwise the latter is clearly better (but doesn't count 5 crusader strikes and dmg improvement from sob-soc, so i can say they are nearly good enough, khorium has 50 more str on its side, too. and it's crafted rather than random drop so more easily obtainable)

then bulwark+boe weapon or t2 weapon (lionheart i'd say)?

mongoose or savagery?

and last but not at all least. i'm collecting blessing cards while leveling up. it would be a stunning 120 ap and 80 spelldmg trinket. rocks hard imho for retradin. question is, does the spelldmg part of trinket take charges from consecration ticks or cast? anyway it fades in 10 secs so i can judge again before it fades, but if i could use consacrate rank1 in its place it would be a nice addition to my dmg (i would go for soc rather than sob in that case i think, as from what i know sob cannot crit (right?) and gets much more dmg from spelldmg)

thx for replies guys

 

Djardin

As my request to incorporate SoR to the DPS spreadsheet didn't receive any favorable echo, I'll try to discuss the scaling of a impSoR ret build compared to a SoC one per item point:

All the maths assume melee hit capped, dodge/parry is discussable, let's assume it affects both SoR and SoC the same way and is ignorable. Vengeance is ignored in all the maths as in its 2.3 state, it can be estimated constantly on 3 stacks even for a SoR build. Sanctity aura is up. Crusade, imp sanctity aura should affect both spec the same way.

Assuming divine strength, bok, enleashed rage, 1 strength = 2.662 AP = 1 item point
1 SD = 0.85 item point.

so, in cost, 1 item point = 2.662 AP = 1.176 SD, it gives us 1 SD = 2.26 AP.

let's estimate the value of a +100 SD upgrade for a impSoR build:

auto attack = 0 DPS
CS 0.4*100/6 = 6.66 DPS
SoR 0.11*100*1.15*1.1 = 13.91 DPS
JoR 0.73*100/8*1.15*1.1 = 11.54 DPS

Total with 2H spec = 33.34 DPS


let's see how good scales a SoC build with +226 AP:

auto attack 226/14 = 16.14 DPS
CS 226/14*3.3/6 = 8.88 DPS
SoC 6.8*(3.8*226/14*0.7)/60*1.1 = 5.35 DPS
JoC = 0 DPS

Total with 2H spec = 32.19 DPS

Please check my math, I hope this could motivate Bellator to add SoR in his spreadsheet
I would love to see the effect of melee crits, spell hits, glancing blows, partial resist, etc on a SoR build, but if you add concecration in the equation, I think an impSoR build can perfectly compete with a SoC build.

 

Prepared

I can't compare them, because the spreadsheet doesn't work. OpenOffice, remember? :P

 

Rheyah

I see no mention of SoR's hit rate in those calculations, which would be divided by 3.8 with that same weapon unless I'm reading wrong?

Yes, I'm getting 13.915 additional damage per hit divided by 3.8 is 3.6 DPS? Or am I wrong here.

 

Djardin

SoR spell damage contribution is 11% per second. That's why I don't have to factor in weapon speed to compute a DPS. And yeah, I used 3.8 weapon speed for SoC DPS evaluation.

 

Lopaka

I originally leveled up my paladin as Protection to AoE grind my way to 70, then went holy to heal in raids. With all of the changes coming for Retribution, I have been slowly putting together a Retribution set when the opportunities come up. It's not quite there yet, as I still have some holes to fill, but it's getting there. I have always thought having one Ret Pally in a raid would be a great asset, but it's an uphill battle trying to convince people that still have the lolRet mentality.

Anyways, back to the topic of weapons. I currently have the [Hammer of the Naaru], enchanted with Savagery and socketed with 3 [Bold Living Ruby]. I know it's not the best weapon out there for a Ret Pally, but do you think it's good enough to raid at the SSC/TK level as Ret? I don't want to go into a raid as Ret when I get the rest of my gear with a lackluster weapon. I know the S3 stuff is very good, but I am just a casual PvPer, and my personal rating will probably never be high enough to get the S3 Sword or Mace.

If the weapon I have is not good enough, what should I be trying to get? I could probably save enough arena points for the [Merciless Gladiator's Bonegrinder], would that be a big upgrade from the [Hammer of the Naaru]?

Thanks for your advice!

 

Nicolai

The Hammer of the Naaru is a good raiding Ret weapon. Not the best, but good. I don't think it's a bad place to start at all if you're just stepping into SSC/TK. Aside from crafting and arenas, you're not going to get much better before SSC/TK anyways.

 

Cathmor

The only other comparable weapon you'd have access to stepping into the beginning of SSC/TK that's not a craftable or PvP weapon is [Gorehowl], to my knowledge. Prince Malchezaar awaits!

 

Silverbreeze

First off I'd like to say thanks for the great thread, there's lots of good information here so keep it up.

Now, my question is, after seeing the new Arena Season 3 Scaled Gloves, I've been curious as to if they would viable over other gloves you would find in Hyjal / Black Temple, if not just for the 5% Damage to Crusader Strike, which is a lot of damage, especially on criticals. Would [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets] be preferred over other drops, such as [Pillager's Gauntlets] or [Grips of Silent Justice]? I know both of the other alternatives have hit rating on them, while the Gladiator piece doesnt, but the Gladiator also has Critical Strike rating whereas the other two pieces don't. I know Haste and Armor Ignoring are two stats that are commonly talked about in terms of viability for Paladins, but would the Season 3 gloves be worth the loss of Strength, Hit, Haste or Armor Penetration, for the return of 5% Crusader Strike?

 

Rheyah

I see, I wasn't aware it scaled like that. However it still doesn't take into account that to properly scale all involved attacks with crit, you need two seperate stats that are rarely on the same gear and in addition, despite SoR's considerable scaling it does not scale at all with raid buffs.

SoC, by comparison, will exceed what I consider to be give or take the maximum effective spell power of a Retribution paladin at around 2200AP and will continue scaling up to raid level attack powers of 3000+. Add on the critical hit problem (where SoC for me can have anything up to a 45% crit rate on raids at a 2X multipler) and SoR gets left far behind.

Might be interesting to see, but the real world implications of actually effectively using SoR would be too severe. I suspect that's why it's not really been given a huge amount of consideration.

 

Lopaka

Well, we are 6/6 in SSC and 3/4 in TK [Kael is a jerkface], so we're not exactly stepping into those zones. We really don't run Kara anymore, so I am trying my best to finagle [World Breaker] now that I think most of our raiding warriors have it. So I am playing catch up gear-wise, and am trying my best to become viable for where we are now. If I am not lucky with [World Breaker], do you think the S2 arena mace should be my goal?

 

Nicolai

If you're trying to gear up as Ret, I'd strongly consider running through HKM/Gruul with another raid group whenever you get the chance. There are 5-6 pretty good pieces in there that would make your life easier while you wait for SSC drops.

After sharding that stuff for a few weeks, I finally started raiding on my paladin and haven't seen any of it since. I'm hoping Thursday is a big one for me and I pick up new bracers, gloves, shoulders, and legs (and maybe even a Hammer of the Naaru while I continue to work on upgrading my Thunder). It's embarassing to have an Armory like mine even though we just killed Hydross. People are beginning to talk.

 

Lopaka

I would love to jump into Gruul's sometime, but most guilds that are still running that will have people that need that dps gear, and my chances would be pretty low. And we raid Sun-Thur, finding time to run more raids is going to be difficult. I've gotten a couple trash drops and what-not from SSC/TK already([Bands of the Celestial Archer]), so I'm hoping I won't have to run places we took off the calendar if I can help it.

 

Cathmor

I'd say s2 bonegrinder would be a great option if you can't grab World Breaker. I'm holding out hope for a World Breaker myself, going to fight a fury warrior to the death for it - he wants a PvP toy.

Someone mentioned running Gruul's Lair to grab some pieces and catch up - I'd suggest getting your craftables on as well. I don't know your paladin's gear level, but [Black Felsteel Bracers] are great, you can live with a Ragesteel Breastplate for a while, a [Red Belt of Battle] would be awesome if you can beg and plead for some vortexes, and depending on your profession, other various pieces. I myself am an engineer, so I got some nice goggles.

It's rough out there, good luck getting your drops!

 

Lopaka

Thanks for the tips! I am definitely going to try and sweet talk a [Red Belt of Battle] out of our GM when we have enough Vortexes and people's mains are taken care of. I am getting the Ragesteel Shoulders and Breastplate crafted as soon as I finish getting the rest of the mats together.

 

Mortehl

Has anyone managed a WWS parse yet on the PTR by any miracle? I really want to see Crusader Strike in our 25 man raids in the worst way and I'm dealing with all the assorted bigotry and general misinformed stupidity within my guild at the moment.

What I wouldn't give for JoL, JoW AND JoTC up on bosses. It'd make my life tanking so much easier.

 

flyingtoastr

I had a parse of my guild's attempts at ZA but I seem to have misplaced it (oddly not on my WWS account or my hard drive). If I find it I'll post it here, but if not I was doing about the damage of our resident fury warrior. We both had Windfury and Unleashed rage, neither had might (since I was the only pally in raid). The only problem that I noticed was mana constraints, which I could have easily compensated for by actually remembering to copy over my bank character so I had some mana pots. The only time I came close to pulling aggro on a boss is when I had Heroism and Avenging Wrath active at the same time.

Thats the best I can give you right now, if I head there again I'll record it. I'm sure someone else has a log though.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

Mortehl

Thanks for the information. This all feels in line with what I'm thinking, but I have to start putting together consistent, irrefutable evidence backed up by hard numbers that show bringing a retadin in will help us. I've already started grabbing quotes (such as the JoW math) from this thread and posting it, but until I get some parses in a raid environment, I'm wasting my time. Worse, I'm subjecting myself to the ravings of a very negative crowd; one warrior in particular who's crying because he knows damn well ret's time has come.

 

Sapp

I personally stuck with girdle of tidal call, I like having SOME int on my gear; I start to feel antsy if i'm under 6k unbuffed.

There's probably some mathematical flaw there, but I'm not terribly worried about it. I know JoW is the big part of sustainability after all, and actual mana pool is fairly irrelevant. I really don't like having a 5k or less mana pool though.

Weaponwise, I should be getting a Torch in the near future to upgrade from my own World Breaker. Glory awaits!

 

Bury

Bellator- Thank you for the spreadsheet, I'm having a great time playing around with it.

Question: Why are some of the entries in the hidden "DPS" sheet bolded?

edit:
1. Also, is it possible to include weapon speed/topend in while rating an item in the DPS sheet? I'm using the sheet to plan gear upgrades and such.
2. stats on the Crystalforge War-Helm are way off.
3. hmm, higher rating doesn't necessarily translate into higher SoC DPS. crap. how did you come up with the stat weightings in cells DPS!AM4:AM13?

 

flyingtoastr

New 2.3 Notes for the last build to go up on the PTR's had a few small changes to paladins.

-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals

I'll do the warlock JoW stuff tonight. I promise.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

Cromfel

Here are some of my PTR WWS logs. Needles to say its much of pain to find proper random groups to even try out anything. Usually it ends up splatter with those blue geared tanks

Cromfel.Battlefield.fi - 2.3 Windfury Test PTR

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Meuble

Hi everyone. I don't feel like creating a new thread for it so I'm just gonna ask here: As anyone tried Executionner on a ret weapon? On s3 set we're getting a lot of ignore armor (and on officials forums, lots of ret are despising it apparently), and there's some end game piece we can definitly use with this "new" stat.

Soo.. I know our rogues feels like mongooze will still be better for them. But what about ret pals? Is this new enchant better than mong? (or savagery btw) Anybody tried it himself already? If not I'll try to post some stats myself before the end of the week... I'll try.

 

flyingtoastr

Judging by what we know of armor penetration for ret pallys (it only effects a portion of our damage), I'm going to say that Savagery is still the best weapon enchant for us. Executioner seems like a mainly rogue and warrior enchant, as they have much more to gain from armor penetration than ret pallys (all of their damage, excluding posions, are physical and thus mitigated by armor). I don't have any data at the moment to back this up, but if history proves true then Executioner will be a distant 3rd in useful ret pally enchants (Savagery > Mongoose > Executioner).

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.