[top] old SPD + 0.5 * (your STR)

new Melee

Seventity · 01/26/08, 7:21 AM

I think STR > SD talent is not that unlikely thing to happen. Although CS mechanics were changed, there is still abundance of skills scaling either with bonus holy damage or bonus healing. This doesn't make much difference in raid dps situation, but I think it will be very welcome by PvP players, because currently they are missing any scaling on heals, consecration, hammer of wrath and judgment of command. It would also help to bring SoC a little closer to SoB in DPS. Changing Crusade for it is also possible as well as changing it from 3-pointer to 2-pointer.

The other unconfirmed change to Sanctity Aura looks a little grim. It's a 2% more damage gained vs 10% less holy damage done which might be even a nerf to overall damage and nerf for sure in PvP. However it would be an overall buff of dps group performance.

Regarding ret paladin placement, there is one thing I've missed in my question - threat. While a rogue can use mutliple aggro reduction skills and just go on with damage, ret paladin can't. So in a very threat caped situation it might be more beneficial to replace ret with rogue in meele group. However I'm unsure how effective is rogues threat reduction - does vanish remove all aggro? How much more DPS can rogue do per 1 feint?

Anyway thanks for all the answers.

Teer · 01/26/08, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos

When i try to use theDPS Spreadsheet from bellator i keep getting the same error: "Run-time error '1004' - Method 'Range' of object'_Global' failed"

Any idea how to fix it?

Ty

If you are using Excel: go into Excel Options > Advanced > (scroll to the bottom) check "Transition Formula Entry"

Originally Posted by Seventity

Regarding ret paladin placement, there is one thing I've missed in my question - threat. While a rogue can use mutliple aggro reduction skills and just go on with damage, ret paladin can't. So in a very threat caped situation it might be more beneficial to replace ret with rogue in meele group. However I'm unsure how effective is rogues threat reduction - does vanish remove all aggro? How much more DPS can rogue do per 1 feint?

Feint (rank 6) removes 1050 threat which should equal around 1300 damage. I don't play a rogue any longer, but rogues in my guild have been heard muttering about the uselessness of Feint. I don't think they even use it any longer.
The solid threat dump comes from Vanish which reduce aggro to zero, just like Feign Death.

Well the (unconfirmed) change to Sanctity Aura reduce our holy damage by 10%, but increase ALL our damage by 2% (4% if you take 2 free talent points into consideration). Holy damage only effect Consecration, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath and Judge. While the flat 4% increase effect all things, including Crusader Strike and auto attack (which is around 50% of the total damage). Maybe it's not a buff, but I really don't think it will be a nerf. Maybe if someone who is good at calculations (*hint hint*) can even theorycraft exact numbers and prove me wrong. But I know that our reputation with melee groups should increase, even if it's not the change I would want (like Vengeance gives party a stacking buff).

Fiola · 01/26/08, 12:10 PM

Okay, it's slightly silly to take rumored patch notes seriously (and come on, the same method as 2.3? Put up on the EU forums and copied before it was deleted?), but here it goes:

Figure Auto-attack (50%), CS (20~%), with SoC/JoC (30%), for a total of 100%. Sanct. Aura adds 10% holy damage (SoC/JoC) => +3% overall damage. The rumored Sanct. Aura would be +4% damage, a gain.

The ratio of Holy to physical damage depends a lot on your rotation and situation (AoE situations completely favor Holy damage, for example), but for single target raid DPS, 70 to 30 seems about right. (based it on my last DPS parse for ZA)

I'm ignoring the iSanct Aura talent, but the rumored SA seems to cost 1 talent point and whatnot.

And that's about as far as I'd analyze those rumors. Save your effort for the real PTR notes.

Carpathia · 01/26/08, 2:41 PM

I've tried to math model the possible changes in 2.4. If you find some mistakes let me know

The calculations assume
-JotC to be applied on the target
-actual Crusade 3/3 (+3% damge)
-new Crusade 2/2 (with 50% Str > Spd) in 2.4
-actual Sanctity Aura (+10% holy damage) and improved Sanctity Aura 2/2 (+2% damage)
-new improved Sanctity Aura 2/2 (4%) in 2.4

old SPD = your actual Spelldamage without SotC
new SPD

[top] old SPD + 0.5 * (your STR)

new Melee

old Melee * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02)
new Melee = old Melee * 0.990

new CS = old CS * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02)
new CS = old CS * 0.990

new SoB = old SoB * 1.04 / ( 1.03 * 1.02 * 1.1)
new SoB = old SoB * 0.900

new JoB = old JoB * (310+ (new SPD+219) * 0.43) / (310 + (old SPD+219) * 0.43) ) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new JoB = old JoB * 0.900 * (939.93 + new SPD) / (939.93 + old SPD)

new SoC = old SoC * (0.7 * Average Hit + new SPD*0.2 + 219*0.29) / (0.7 * Average Hit + old SPD*0.2 + 219*0.29) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new SoC = old SoC * 0.900 (317.55 + 3.5 * Average Hit + new SPD) / (317.55 + 3.5 * Average Hit + old SPD)

new JoC(6) = old JoC(6)* (240+ (new SPD+219) * 0.43) / (240 + (old SPD+219) * 0.43) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new JoC(6) = old JoC(6)* 0.900 * (777.14 + new SPD) / (777.14 + old SPD)

new Exorcism(7) = old Exorcism(7) * (665 + (new SPD+219)*0.43) / (665 + (old SPD+219)*0.43) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Exorcism(7) = old Exorcism(7) * 0.900 * (1765.51 + new SPD) / (1765.51 + old SPD)

new Consecration(1) = old Consecration(1) * (64+0.46*new SPD+0.95*219) / (64+0.46*old SPD+0.95*219) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Consecration(1) = old Consecration(1) * 0.900 * (591.41+new SPD) / (591.41 + old SPD)

new Consecration(6) = old Consecration(6) * (512+0.95*(new SPD+219)) / (512+0.95(old SPD+219)) * 1.04 / (1.02 * 1.03 * 1.1)
new Consecration(6) = old Consecration(6) * 0.900 * (757.95+new SPD) / (757.95 + old SPD)

so if i take my last teron kill with 44% melee, 22%SoB, 21%CS, 9%JoB, 2% Exorcism(7), 2% Cons(1)
Str = 813
old Spd = 122
new spd = 528

old DPS = 100%
new dps = 44% * new Melee + 22% * new SoB + 9% * new JoB + 21% * new CS + 2% * new Exorcism(7) + 2% new Cons(1)
new dps = 44% * 0.99 + 22% * 0.9 + 9% * 1.244 + 21% * 0.99 + 2% * 1.094 + 2% * 1.412
new dps = 100.358%

the alliance fellows should see a higher dps increase, because SoC has compared to SoB a better modifier

ps : the coefficients are taken from Bellators Sheet, i assume them to be correct

Kris · 01/26/08, 4:51 PM

Come on, guys, those patch notes are fake, no point wasting your time speculating. This is supposed to be a serious thread anyway.

Alleyra · 01/26/08, 4:55 PM

Hey there,

Just a small introduction: I'm a long-time Paladin player (since Closed Beta!) and I absolutely adore the Class. I've been a long-time reader of these forums and have found them to be an invaluable resource. So, firstly: thanks to all the great contributors to the thread.

I just wanted to comment on the upcoming 2.4 rumors.

I have personally seen a ton of "leaks" and, "confirmed but deleted" claims over the past few weeks on numerous websites, forums, etc. And at risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've really only seen a few that seem plausible, given the recent itemization direction, (removal of Spell Damage) talent changes, coefficient reductions/removals.

- Repentance made baseline.
- Crusader Strike moved to 31 point talent.
- Retribution 41 point talent: "Vengeful Strike", 8-second cool-down, 75% weapon damage, reduces Healing done by the target by 15% for 5 seconds.
- Avenging Wrath no longer causes Forbearance. However, it still cannot be activated while afflicted with Forbearance. In addition, Avenging Wrath can no longer be stolen or dispelled (except by Mass Dispel).
- Forbearance has been reduced to 30 seconds.
- Judgment of Command now bases its damage on Attack Power.
- All Judgments now base their chance to hit on either Melee Hit or Spell Hit, whichever will yield a higher chance of a successful cast.
- Hammer of Wrath now scales with either Attack Power or Spell Damage, whichever will do more damage.
- Seal of Vengeance will now apply a charge on every successful hit. Additionally, its Spell Damage coefficient has been increased.
- Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Blood are now available to their opposite factions. SoB on Alliance is named Seal of Sacrifice. SoV on Horde is named Seal of Reckoning.
- Blessing of Freedom cool-down reduced to 15 seconds.
- Cyclone cannot be used against a target that is already under the effects of Divine Shield.
- Retribution Season 1 and Season 2 sets have had their Spell Damage replaced with Resilience.
- Retribution Tiers 4-6 have had their Spell Damage replaced with Haste.
- Redoubt and Reckoning now have a chance to proc on Dodged, Parried, or fully Blocked attacks.
- Improved Devotion Aura now grants a flat 1/2/3/4/5% flat damage reduction to party members in range.
- Sanctity Aura increases all Physical damage by 10%.
- Improved Sanctity Aura increases all damage dealt to afflicted targets by 1/2%.
- Divine Purpose now applies to spell casts in addition to ranged and physical damage.
- Anticipation, Toughness, and One-Handed Weapon Specialization are now each 3-point talents granting the same effect.
- The silence- and interrupt-resistance of Improved Concentration Aura have been worked into the baseline talent. It's place in the Protection tree has been replaced by Anticipation.
- Holy Shield can now be cast while Silenced.
- "Passive" Blessings (Might, Wisdom, etc.) are now no longer overwritten by "Active" Blessings (Freedom, Sacrifice, etc.)
- Holy Shock has had its cooldown reduced to 8 seconds and its effect increased.

Again, no claims that these are "it." No claim of "my Blue friend showed me this." These just seemed a bit more centralized in the realm of realism, based on my experience playing the Class and the direction the Class/spec seems to be moving in.

I do, however, cross my fingers and hope that those are what's to come.

• Chicken · 01/26/08, 5:03 PM

- Improved Sanctity Aura increases all damage dealt to afflicted targets by 1/2%.

Unless they're changing it so that improved sanctity aura makes it affect hostile targets, that note makes very little sense.

Alleyra · 01/26/08, 5:05 PM

I think that's what's implied. A passive/offensive effect: making it a raid-wide buff, as opposed to a group-only buff.

Deimosfobos · 01/26/08, 7:57 PM

Those changes are so fake, no way in hell blizz give us so many buffs, deserved or not...

Originally Posted by Teer

If you are using Excel: go into Excel Options > Advanced > (scroll to the bottom) check "Transition Formula Entry"

TY!

• Zurm · 01/26/08, 9:05 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

I'm assuming SoC because SoB throws in a monkey wrench to calculations in the form of SA regen.

I'm just gonna say this since the alliance paladins keep bringing this up. SoB dmg dealt to the user is VERY low. I have quite good gear, and I can go through all of ROS p1 and barely break 3k dmg to myself. Thats and entire boss phase with A maximum of 300 mana returned. Yes its something, but on fights where I don't take dmg from the boss, my SA return is almost nonexistant.

DarKNecross · 01/26/08, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Alleyra

I have personally seen a ton of "leaks" and, "confirmed but deleted" claims over the past few weeks on numerous websites, forums, etc. And at risk of throwing fuel on the fire, I've really only seen a few that seem plausible, given the recent itemization direction, (removal of Spell Damage) talent changes, coefficient reductions/removals.
****snip****
Again, no claims that these are "it." No claim of "my Blue friend showed me this." These just seemed a bit more centralized in the realm of realism, based on my experience playing the Class and the direction the Class/spec seems to be moving in.

I do, however, cross my fingers and hope that those are what's to come.

To believe the quoted changes in your post would to be incredibly naive. It just looks like someone went through the first 5 pages of threads on the Paladin forums and plucked anything they thought was a good idea. Come on, "SoB on Alliance is named Seal of Sacrifice. SoV on Horde is named Seal of Reckoning." Regardless of your opinions on class balancing/changes, it's pretty safe to assume the dev's could think of more clever names than these. [Seal of Martyrdom would make the most sense for SoB, and Seal of Vengeance shouldn't need a name change since it doesn't imply anything faction-specific]

• frmorrison · 01/26/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

SoB dmg dealt to the user is VERY low.

If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?

grayrest · 01/26/08, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?

To reiterate his point, I only push around 700 dps self buffed (and around 1k full raid buffed), but if I'm not taking damage from another source, my healing is completely covered by ILotP and JoL, which sucks because they both count as self heals and don't trigger SA.

To answer the question, I use SoB when I'm grinding mobs that will be cleanly killed by SoB. E.g. If I'm consistently slivering a mob i'm grinding with two autoattacks with SoC, I switch to SoB. Same if I'm running people through an instance, the consistent extra damage lets me one-shot mobs in the WC/SFK range rather than having to two-shot them. Otherwise, the dps increase doesn't justify the extra downtime. The damage isn't that much, but it's enough to force you to eat/bandage before you'd normally have to drink.

• Zurm · 01/26/08, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

If the damage taken is low, do you normally use SoB when questing solo?

Yes, I often do. I just don't judge very often... most of the recoil comes from judging. In fact, versus certain classes in pvp when I know burst dmg won't help me, I'll use SoB too for consistency. Also I always go grinding/dailey farming with mana buscuits, so getting hp back while getting mana back isn't a problem.

And also adding to Grayrest's point, in pve the mana return is further diminished by the fact that imp LOTP and JoL pretty much entirely negate SoB/JoB dmg, and don't give you any mana back since you are healing yourself.

In fact, lets take a look on a fight like Teron...a fairly standard dps fight.

Teron WWS

Now, looking at my own stats here...

I had no JoL, so SA will have a bit more weight here than it normally would. LOTP healed 8.2k, 33% was overhealed. So that is about 5.5k effective healing "stolen" by LOTP where I didn't get mana back. I did 12,824 dmg to myself with SoB, and Teron did almost 7k. So thats about 22,000 damage I was healed, 16.5k which I could have gotten mana from (we'd probably be looking at more like 10-11k if JoL was on the target). Thats 1.6k mana I could have gotten mana from SA for this, only about ((12824-5500)/10)=750 mana from SoB/JoB dmg dealt over the entire course of the fight. Again, that would be lower had JoL been present. As it turns out, I gained 1733 mana this fight from SA, so the estimate was close.

In conclusion, there certainly is a difference in mana which is significant mathematically, but in the greater scheme of things mana for 2-3 more Crusader Strikes every 3 minutes is not some overpowered percentage. Looking at total mana gained that fight (keep in mind I didn't use ANY mana pots), that 750 mana accounted for about 6.9% of the total mana gained over the course of the fight. I wouldn't call a 7.5% increase in mana regen compared to alliance overpowered, but its certainly a figure you guys are welcome to use in your Theorycrafting.

Hope this helped.

flyingtoastr · 01/27/08, 2:14 AM

Yes Zurm, you're entirely correct that recoil regen is very small, and you won't get any argument from me. When you're just running pure numbers though it is so much simpler just to cut out any unnecessary variables. Spiritual Atunement is (for all intents and purposes) impossible to model mathematically, and thus its so much easier just to cut it out entirely. And whether you find it large enough for exclusion or not, SoB is extra regen via SA. Period.

We could run all these models with SoB, but it just makes things more complicated, both to the people crunching the numbers and those using them. Is it realistic? No. But theorycraft is just that, pure theory. Your mileage will vary.

EDIT: I don't think anyone is going with the SoB > SoC thing right now. I just always assume SoC for mathematical convenience.

[top] old SPD + 0.5 * (your STR) new Melee

[top] old SPD + 0.5 * (your STR)

new Melee