Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 113

Anarkii · 03/15/08, 6:58 PM

Now Blade of the Harbingers is roughly the same DPS as S4 sword for BEs and both Shivering Felspine and Apolyon beat it by big margins

• Zurm · 03/16/08, 4:44 PM

Is anyone sure on the expertise cap? Come 2.4, my goal is to get the 3 new pieces of T6([Lightbringer Boots], [Lightbringer Bands], [Lightbringer Girdle]), with a [Shard of Contempt] to top it off. This totals to 44 + 19 + 16 + 25 = 104 expertise rating. This works out to be 11.16 + 4.82 + 4.06 + 6.34 = 26.38 expertise POINTS @ level 70. It rounds down, so thats 26 x 0.25 = 6.5% dodge/parry reduction.

Is this enough to mitigate all dodge/parry on a raid boss (ie level 73)?

flyingtoastr · 03/16/08, 5:54 PM

According to the Rogue thread you need 6.5% to be expertise capped. WoWwiki and a lot of other people I've talked to have said you only need 5.6%.

I would err on the side of caution and assume 6.5% until someone can prove without a doubt which of the numbers is correct.

That's dodges of course. Boss parry ranges run in the realm of 10-15%, so you would need an obscene amount of expertise to remove parries from the table. Always attack from behind!

• Zurm · 03/16/08, 6:13 PM

Yea thats why I asked here... the people in my guild are convinced its between 6.25 and 6.5% on dodge, but one can never be too sure!

Anarkii · 03/16/08, 10:47 PM

I've taken it as 6.5 in Rawr for anyone wondering.

Lïnk · 03/17/08, 2:58 AM

Anarkii how come no matter how much armor penetration I get from gear Rawr model always says that mongoose is better weapon enchant over executioner. Is it actually better? I'm running at 622 armor penetration right now w/ [Cataclysm's Edge] as my main hand. I'm planning on getting [Leggings of Divine Retribution] and still saying mongoose is better. And i saw you're also using executioner as a main hand enchant. Is there miscalculating error in the rawr model?

Anarkii · 03/17/08, 3:07 AM

What value of boss armor are you using? With 6200 armor(all Hyjal bosses and Teron), and some Armor Penetration gear (Cata w/ Exec, Signet of Primal Wrath, Serrated Blades, Divine Retribution, Dory's Embrace) Executioner becomes better than Mongoose. This is of course for SoB. For SoC, Executioner becomes better much earlier.

I'm personally using Executioner because of the looks(and the difference between Exec and Mongoose isn't big even without stacking ArP). I plan to get Mongoose if Torch EVER drops (or on Blade of the Harbinger I guess).

This reminds me of something I've been thinking to post about for a while. An interesting development in the coming months will be benchmarking around Brutallus. Till now, most of the common DPS benchmarks have been on 6200 armor bosses (all of Hyjal and Teron). So both white damage and CS have stayed at relatively high percentages of overall DPS. With Brutallus being a 6min, 8800armor fight, the valuations of buffs, Armor Penetration, Haste etc are likely to change, ArP will go down drastically in value on that fight.

Valerys · 03/17/08, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ragnor

I find on gurtogg if you drop exorcism and consecration out of your rotation for most of the normal phase you should be fine threat wise and do ~1000dps for those phases. Then during fel rage phases use everything, pop avenging wrath + haste potion + with heroism/bloodlust. Overall for the fight you'll end up at over 1200 dps.

I've heard opinions that meleeing Gurtogg when you are fel rages is bad, because if he parries you, it's often GG. What is people's opinion on this?

Buliwyf · 03/17/08, 11:05 AM

I've been told the same Valerys. Something about when he parries you it causes him to hit your more often. I'm not sure of the details. I've never actually had a fel rage, but if i do I'll just pull out my Shield, consecrate and then heal myself.

Galick · 03/17/08, 11:30 AM

When a boss parries an attack it resets his swing timer. Not the good kind though, the kind that makes him finish his current swing and immediately do another attack. We had a T5/T6 tank get instagibbed on an lol Gruul's run a few weeks back because he ran in without shield block on and HKM double crushed him due to a parried attack. Same thing has happened on Teron Gorefiend because a melee started attacking from the front during the pull. I don't know why it's a part of the game but it's a factor I don't like since I get parried a lot on Council due to having to constantly reposition.

• Zurm · 03/17/08, 11:32 AM

I just dps if I get fel rage on Gurtogg... our healers don't seem to have a problem (seeing as how I have plate... they only worry if a clothie gets fel raged) and its a lot of extra damage

Avitus · 03/17/08, 12:07 PM

I've updated the ItemCache.xml for RAWR with the following, feel free to try it out:

-S4 sword nerf
-Added Apolyon (stats from MMO-Champion pic: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ry/apolyon.jpg)
-S4 gear armor change
-Fixes here and there, mostly items that were listed as "Common" quality now have the correct quality.
-Added hit gems: [Rigid Lionseye][Rigid Dawnstone][Glinting Pyrestone][Glinting Noble Topaz]

One of the main challenges come 2.4 is going to be getting hit capped (given that all the plate gear, with the exception of the crafted gloves, have 0 +hit) and with S4 sword getting nerfed, I really wanted to see how things would work out with Apolyon (which does not have any hit sadly).

Link: http://www.lostchapter.org/Avi/Rawr/ItemCache.xml

(Anarkii, PM inc

)

xellos · 03/17/08, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Buliwyf

I've been told the same Valerys. Something about when he parries you it causes him to hit your more often. I'm not sure of the details. I've never actually had a fel rage, but if i do I'll just pull out my Shield, consecrate and then heal myself.

Don't think it's a good idea to heal yourself either since you lose the ability to parry (or was it dodge?) when you're casting spells.

Tekzor · 03/17/08, 12:43 PM

I always switch to my bulwark and rising tide during fel rage just to be safe.

As for getting hit capped in sunwell, I picked up a [Stormrage Signet Ring]. After working through a lot of the item combinations in bellator's spreadsheet, the hit on the ring makes every other slot work well.

Galick · 03/17/08, 12:51 PM

I have little to no faith in our healers a great deal of the time so when I get fel enrage I throw on a shield until I get topped off since it takes some time for them to switch targets and begin casting. Once I get topped off I throw on the two hander and pop any CDs I have and try to hit some monster numbers. If I get below 50%, I'll throw on the shield again. Also, if you wanna see something really cool, LoH yourself if you get low. Don't worry, you'll get all the mana back from SA in about 3 secs.

Gevlin · 03/17/08, 1:13 PM

Our guild takes our Enh Shammy from the melee group and puts it in the tank group. Basically just raising the threat cap and lowering our threat and dmg, but allows the melee to go harder for longer. then we get the shaman back for the 20-30% fel rage for heroism WF etc. Seems to work well.

As for parries during fel rage....i'd say blow AW and dps your heart out. we're easier to keep alive than clothies (mostly because of higher dodge) even with a parry or two. almost 400% damage with AW up is no joke.

Avitus · 03/17/08, 1:21 PM

Has anyone done some number crunching regarding Hit rating and the Sunwell gear?

I've been doing some myself for the perfect plate set in 2.4 and am wondering if anyone found any especially inventive ways to get hit capped.

The current optimal set I'm considering would be:

[Crown of Anasterian]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] <-21 Hit rating
[Pauldrons of Berserking]
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] <-17 Hit rating
[Warharness of Reckless Fury]
[Lightbringer Bands]
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] <-23 Hit rating
[Lightbringer Girdle]
[Felfury Legplates]
[Lightbringer Boots]
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Libram of Divine Judgement]

With 16 Hit rating from head enchant, that's a total of 77 Hit rating. 18 Hit rating short of the 95 Hit rating cap.

With [Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword] I'd be perfectly hitcapped. However that's just a stepping stone till Apolyon.

(The following is all calculated through Rawr)

Options:

-2x 10 hit gems
-[Dreadboots of the Legion] instead of the Lightbringer ones (this is an option for humans only however).
-[Madness of the Betrayer] instead of one of the trinkets (Crusade Card being very good if moderate to high consecration/exorcism is used and pretty crap otherwise).
-Leather head from illidan or leather pants from felmyst.

Again not sure if there's a straight answer, but I'm wondering what others might have considered for an optimal/hit capped set or even if their optimal set differs

Sure will be painful having only 4k mana unbuffed though...

Strifen · 03/17/08, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Again not sure if there's a straight answer, but I'm wondering what others might have considered for an optimal/hit capped set or even if their optimal set differs

If it's possible for you look into getting the Stormrage Signet Ring off of Illidan. I grabbed one recently because of all the plate gear lacking +hit. I'm sure I'll need to switch it in. It's a ton of + hit on one item.

Originally Posted by Avitus

Sure will be painful having only 4k mana unbuffed though...

I've yet to have any significant mana problems with wisdom judged.

Avitus · 03/17/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Strifen

If it's possible for you look into getting the Stormrage Signet Ring off of Illidan. I grabbed one recently because of all the plate gear lacking +hit. I'm sure I'll need to switch it in. It's a ton of + hit on one item.

Yea it's an option, but it almost has too much hit, but not enough that you can drop any other hit item, so a lot of that itemvalue gets wasted.

And that's why it's so tricky finding the perfect balance of stats/gain

I've yet to have any significant mana problems with wisdom judged.

Questions is, what is your DPS however. I know you can SoC/JoC (or SoB/JoB) and CS and never run out of mana with JoW on the mob, but I tend to try to push the envelope a bit with consecration, on some bosses I can maintain full out max rank consecration spam.

That's a 150 DPS increase, on undead/demon mobs it's roughly 220 DPS increase with exorcism on top.

It's the difference between a mediocre ~1500 DPS and a pretty awesome 1700+ DPS (or 1950 my current record on Gorefiend, but that's another story).

Unfortunately, it comes at an almost unsurmountable mana cost, I guess blizz didn't intend for us to use it that way.

Still, consecration is a major DPS increase one would be foolish to ignore, especially since we don't have any other abilities with dots ticking like deep wounds.

I guess in a nutshell, I'm happy that with the new gear there's going to be a roughly 300 DPS increase from the current best gear (what I'm wearing basically) if you disregard consecration/exorcism.

If you factor in not being able to keep up much consecration/exorcism however in the new gear, it somehow diminishes the overall performance.

Obviously regen > mana pool, however in short fights (and with few exceptions, most fights aren't that long in BT/Hyjal for example) a 2500 extra mana head start (equal to an extra super mana potion) comes in very welcome, which is what I'll lose going from T6 -> int-less Sunwell gear.

I'm still undecided, I wish they'd give us some sort of significantly cheaper single target consecration spell ala deep wounds

Gaffadin · 03/17/08, 6:14 PM

I actually just went through the loot list from Sunwell with a view to figuring out how to remain hit-capped and came up with some inventiveness of my own.

[Item not found!] (16 hit)
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] (21 hit)
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (17 hit)
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] (32 hit)
Surefooted on your (T6 probably) boots (10 hit)

Gives a grand total of 96 hit.

Of course you're going to have to distract your Rogues with candy or porn or something to get them to let you take the legs (I would probably wait until the second/third pair, I couldn't in good conscience take the first ones) but aside from that it would be a decent way of remaining hit-capped.

Avitus · 03/17/08, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gaffadin

Of course you're going to have to distract your Rogues with candy or porn or something to get them to let you take the legs (I would probably wait until the second/third pair, I couldn't in good conscience take the first ones) but aside from that it would be a decent way of remaining hit-capped.

Yea those leather pants from Felmyst are pretty sweet, but I was hoping to not be forced to go leather in order to get hit capped.

With those pants, it would be possible to get the crafted leather gloves and socket 1 hit gem and net a total increase of ~32 DPS (!) over my previous total.

Would mean 2 leather items though :/

flyingtoastr · 03/17/08, 7:10 PM

The best thing I could hope for right now would be a change in the 4-piece T6 bonus. If they made that bonus viable you could keep wearing your [Lightbringer Breastplate], which has enough hit rating to cover the gaps without using the Illidan ring or the S4 sword.

But as it is now, I'll be crafting my [Hard Khorium Battleplate] and be happy with that (and socket a few Lionseyes somewhere).

Oh by the way, has anyone run the Season 4 gloves versus the Hard Khorium yet? The S4 gloves stats are (I can't use excel at work):

Brutal Gladiator's Scaled Gauntlets
Binds when picked up
1239 Armor
+46 Stamina 
+27 Intellect
+44 Strength 
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves your critical strike rating by 30.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 26.
Equip: Increases the damage done by your Crusader Strike by 5%.

♦ Theras · 03/17/08, 7:17 PM

Yeah, my plan is also to wear all the best in slot plate, with a couple [Rigid Lionseye] in my yellow sockets. That plus a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] is enough to perfectly hit cap at 95.

Angeal · 03/17/08, 7:27 PM

Took a bit of a break from WoW. Three weeks have passed and now I see this Rawr thing.

I downloaded it, and I'll probably check it out shortly. What are the differences between it and Bellator's?

Anyone have any opinions on if I should just stop trying to acquire Armor Pen, and go straight for Haste? Yes I'm Blood Elf. Right now with our Prot Pally leaving, Hyjal isn't really doable - No Cataclysm's Edge for me

Gurtogg should be down this week, so Divine Retribution are of course obtainable. 2.4

Bah, I pretty much answered it for myself. I guess I'll start working on Haste :P

Gaffadin · 03/17/08, 8:23 PM

For Bellator's spreadsheet you had to have Excel (which I and some others didn't), so Rawr is a help for us.

Bellator certainly laid the groundwork though, I'm sure our Rawr would not exist were it not for his work.

Props to both Bellator and Anarkii really.

And yeah I'm not crazy about wearing leather either. I really only do it when it provides an overwhelming upgrade from a comparable ilvl mail/plate piece, and in this case the money belt gives a substantial benefit, at least for Alliance Paladins.