Draconna

My solution to hit:
get a boomkin.

 

• Anarkii

For engineers , the setup Theras mentioned, replacing Crown with Mayhem Projection Goggles hitcaps you and gives you a 10DPS increase. Others might have to go for leather as discussed above.

p.s And yeah, Rawr would not have been possible without Bellator's spreadsheet - so a lot of the credit goes to Bellator. As people who've been following Rawr might know, the goal of Rawr was not just to port the spreadsheet to the Rawr framework. A spreadsheet and excel macros can only do so much, and macros get cumbersome very quickly. So that was the basic reason I started thinking about it. Then as I saw the ease of use that Rawr could provide while maintaining the same accuracy as a spreadsheet, I became convinced that it was worth the time and effort to do it.

There is also another reason for me staying so interested in Rawr. Rawr currently has working feral, mage, warlock, retribution, healadin, moonkin, ele shaman models while 2-3 other models had been started. Once all the models are implemented in Rawr, we can start looking at Raid Modeling. Something that has never been done so far. Pick 25 characters in the raid and you can not only see the Raid DPS, but also figure out the best group setups possible with those 25. The mage's mana gain will be based on how much mana *that* shadowpriest returns, for example.

This is complicated and still far in the future, so don't ask me about it yet, but it is possible.

 

Strifen

Yeah I hear you there man. I'm a fan of getting hit capped without having to go into prot for the + hit talents but I don't think that's very reasonable come sunwell time. One things for sure is that I can not wait to get all that expertise on our T6 pieces.

It depends a lot on the fight of course but for a typical tank and spank like Teron Gorefiend I generally push 2100 peaking out at 2300 (multiple lusts + sob). I can keep all my abilities on cooldown while weaving in rank 2-3 concecrate. One thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the vindication 'immune' debuff does infact have a chance to proc JoW ? I've got 3/3 in my raid build so that may account for quite a bit of mana regen.

 

flyingtoastr

Vindication does seem to proc JoW.

Remember also you are getting regen via SoB/JoB recoil heals, something us Alliance Paladins do not have access to. It isn't a huge amount, but its enough to make a large difference in mana supplies on a long boss fight. Seal of Blood also costs 70 less mana than a max rank Seal of Command.

In short, its another one of those "metrosexual elves need not apply" issues.

 

Valerys

Here's the optimal set I put together for SoB:

[Duplicitous Guise] - 30 hit rating, 4 from gem bonus, 16 from enchant
[Choker of Endless Nightmares] <-21 Hit rating
[Pauldrons of Berserking]
[Cloak of Fiends]
[Warharness of Reckless Fury]
[Lightbringer Bands]
[Hard Khorium Battlefists] <-23 Hit rating
[Lightbringer Girdle]
[Felfury Legplates]
[Lightbringer Boots]
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Hard Khorium Band]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Libram of Avengement]

And Apolyon.

Total 94 hit rating, 1 below the cap. It also involves a leather helm, for which your rogues might murder you. If you go with Crown of Anasterian then you'll need the Gorefiend cloak or Illidan ring, but it'll be some dps loss.

EDIT: Just plugged them into the spreadsheet - with Anasterian you'll be losing a lot of +hit, so you will also need to plug in a +hit gem along with the cloak or ring, and it'll be about 20 dps loss from the above setup.

Note also that this setup has only one blue socket, so you'll need to socket a second blue gem out of color for the meta - I suggest the bracers since their socket bonus is the crappiest.

 

Prinsesa

If I had really bad luck with Blood Furnace drops, which would be in second place, the [Libram of Righteous Power] or the [Libram of Divine Judgement]?

I acknowledge that as a Blood Elf I should be using the Righteous since Divine Judgement is only for Seal of Command, but how about for those rare Prince fights and general PvP?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Valerys

I use Righteous myself, since I don't have Avengement. For SoC Divine Judgement beats everything else (see? see? Alliance advantage right there! )

 

• Anarkii

Just wondering - in all the optimal set discussion in the last 2 pages, what value of boss armor are you guys using?

 

• Avitus

Well not to flip flop or anything, but I didn't mean not taking the talents, cause that's almost certainly a big DPS loss from what you need to fill in gear wise in hit rating.



I usually run a non stacked group (ret, enhance, warrior, rogue, rogue), as an alliance paladin my best so far has been 1950.

Think I've hit much more the one time we had a stacked group for fun (+feral, +bmhunter), 2.1k sounds bout right, but still no multiple lusts

Curious, but what party setup do you have there? And how can your raid afford multiple bloodlusts for your party without gimping other parts of the raid?



I'm pretty sure Vindication procs JoW, whether it does so on vindication 'immune' mobs, I'm not too certain. I think atm the assumption is that it also does proc JoW when immune, based on guesses from a few WWS logs that show increased JoW procs on bosses.

Has anyone figured this out for certain (with proof)?

 

• Avitus

The default (7700).

Also 5x sunder, CoR, unimproved FF.

 

• Mex

I was under the impression that it did. There was a post awhile back with an excerpt from a combat log showing Vindication Immunity proccing JoW.

Edit - Yup, Retribution DPS Theorycraft

I don't remember anyone offering any critique on it, and I only skimmed the following couple of pages so maybe it's been disproven but it looks fairly solid.

 

• Avitus

Well, I'm not sure whether the new combat log has the same short coming, but in the current combat log things like this can always show up due to lag.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not 100% conclusive.

Personally I have 1/3 vindication in my raiding spec.

 

Ayreon

I am pretty sure Vindication does proc JoW



Right after an autoattack + CS

 

• Avitus

Alright, sounds great then, we can nail this one down now

 

Strifen

Ok sweet thanks for clearing that up. I thought I saw it proccing off of vindication in on my combat log - glad I wasn't just going crazy. To answer Avitus. Generally my group is either feral druid, ms war, enhance shaman, ret, rogue. or 2x rogue, enhance, ms war, ret. It's about 50/50, so at times very stacked. Also we have 7 raiding shaman in the guild so putting 3 lusts in the meele group on a fight like Teron won't gimp any part of the raid.

 

Prinsesa

Regarding Vindication: I think the next question would be, would there be a difference between 1/3 and 3/3 as far as the proc rate is concerned?

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Meuble

The tooltip doesn't say so. Usually, if the proc's increased, it does... And considering how Vindication 1/3 procs (my raiding spec too) I really doubt it goes any higher than that.

 

pvita

I was wondering about armor penetration and how we model it in both Rawr and Bellator's spreadsheet. There is stuff that provides a static amount of armor penetration and there are things that proc armor penetration. We model proc armor penetration through averaging it. I had feeling this is could be a little off as damage increase from armor penetration should not be linear.

I wanted to validate it, but as you will see, I miss some data and will need a little help from you with it. I am not so good in math, I am not going to pretend it. I would like to present you one scenario and hope you can follow what I mean. Maybe I am wrong, doing some horrible math error, just do not shoot me in that case, please.

Consider we face boss for simplicity not with 7700 armor, but just 6200 armor. With all raid debuffs and fixed amount of armor penetration from paladin's gear we reduce boss effective armor by 5360 to 840, this is possible with patch 2.4 loot for sure. Our paladin has Executioner enchant on his weapon. This means boss has base mitigation of 7,37% procent. If Executioner procs, our paladin will reduce boss armor to zero for Xs, where X is Executioner uptime.

Situation 1) We model Executioner as fixed ArmorP bonus (354.7 for 3.8s weapon speed) and pretend that paladin reduced boss to some fix amount of armor whole time (4.56% in our case). Average DPS will be A.

Situation 2) Paladin face whole time boss with 7.37% armor mitigation and does B dps, just for Xs of Executioner uptime he does C dps more. Average DPS should be B + (X/60) * C.

Question at hand is how looks difference between Situation 1 and Situation 2.

What values of A, B and C we can use? I took SoC, some standard raid buff settings, Tier 6 gear preset and put it all into Bellator's table. Removed enchant from weapon and modified character base ArmorP in order to achieve 5360 ArmorP on boss. In DPSCalc tab I set 6200 base armor to boss. I hope my math above is not totaly off. I achiveved following numbers by switching on Executioneer and switching it off while adding another 840 to base ArmorP.

A = 1822dps

B = 1779dps
C = 107dps

The only problem is X. These values though says, that if Bellator's model takes Executioner uptime of 24s, both model deliver same result. Lower uptime leads to Bellator's model providing higher dps as in reality it would be.

During this whole think I realized, that through averaging Executioner in spreadsheet it can well happen, that some ArmorP happy paladin will actually sport way to much ArmorP, not even noticing it. Maybe we should incorporate some check if sum of all fixed ArmorP bonuses and possible procs do not exceed expected boss armor.

 

• Zurm

Anyone know if Vindication procs T6 2pc as well? I've been scanning my WWS logs and can't seem to be able to prove it either way, but my hunch is yes because the proc rate was about 10% higher with vindication then without.... then again that could be purely off sample size.

 

Tekzor

Some items in the ptr combat log show up immediately [.05-.1 seconds] following actions they should be associated with and some can lag as far as 1.1 seconds behind in my very limited grep of my own actions in the logs. I went through and 'intuitively' trimmed actions that already matched up and would have caused a jow proc and that is what I had left. Far from conclusive, I agree--but in an anecdotal sense it does seem to add up.

 

• Anarkii

@pvita
Good Points. Just to go back to the basics, there are 2 different issues at play here :

1. Averaging out executioner over its uptime (uptime is derived from weapon speed, then Average ArP from Exec=((uptime/60)*840) ) is not 100% accurate. This is because due to the nature of ArP, 5000 ArP average is different from 5500 ArP for 50% of the time and 4500 ArP for rest of the time. For executioner, this difference can be 2-3 DPS.

2. If effective boss armor is less than 840 without executioner, some portion of the buff will be wasted, and as a result the executioner model will not be fully accurate.

Now coming to solving these issues :

For 1, Rawr is not a simulator and so we'll have to solve this with a closed form equation instead of a real simulation. For Executioner, this means modeling it not as an ArP increase, but as a damage multiplier. Assuming we know the effective boss armor while doing the calculation for executioner, this becomes
ExecutionerMultiplier = (1.0*ExecutionerDownTime + (1.0+(DamageIncrease/100))*ExecutionerUpTime)/60

Here DamageIncrease will be something like 4%(say) which is the additional damage you do because of the additional ArP on a boss with specified armor.

So the question is why didn't I model it like this? If Executioner was the only such proc/enchant/item, the assumption that we know the effective boss armor while doing this calculation would have been correct. Simply subtract the sum of passive ArP from the boss armor and you get the effective boss armor. However, that assumption is not sound because there ARE other procs like this. Madness of the Betrayer for example. Do I thread in madness uptime, executioner uptime, madness downtime, executioner downtime all together in a closed form equation? What if there are more items/procs like these?

Thus I decided that averaging out is the best route to take.

Regarding (2), again I can specifically check if EffectiveBossArmor < 840, then take that into account while calculating executioner. But the same scenario here - add multiple proc items, and it becomes a mess.

I'll be more than happy to take care of both issues if someone can simply represent them in a closed form equation while keeping in mind that in the future, more such procs can be added.

 

Holynae

I would pick
[Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm]
instead of
[Hard Khorium Battlefists]
just because I don't see the point of paying full gear points AND 1200g average in case of the plate gloves. Don't know how your guilds are going to handle the craftable items in sunwell.

But regarding the hitrating I would say, socketing [Rigid Lionseye] is not a possibility. Socketing [Etched Fire Opal] would be much better in my opinion.

 

• Avitus

Damn, that's pretty lucky

Nope, Vindication has 100% proc chance regardless of talent points spent.

 

Grengorr

I don't see any mention of [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] since page 103. Does anyone have any further information other than Aldor rep giving 200 AP for 10 s with some unknown cooldown and the unconfirmed (?) reports of Scryers rep giving a ~400 crittable arcane damage proc with unknown chance and cooldown?

 

flyingtoastr

I don't personally know anyone who took the time and effort to get to exalted to try it out, and with the PTR down I don't think there will be many updates for a while.

I personally won't be using one unless it is truly godly, the hit rating on [Choker of Endless Nightmares] is too important.

Divine Favor still costs mana.