On the topic of 4pc T6 bonus and socket bonuses...
According to a reliable source, the reason these are not being changed is because the gentleman who does these types of changes is well... yah.
They "could" do it, but it won't happen... That's about all I can really say. You'll just have to make the needed assumptions ><
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news >< Hopefully they'll get someone who can do these changes without much of a hassle eventually.
No, the reason that the T6 socket bonuses aren't being changed is because of the bug that exists when they're changed; you get both the old and new bonuses. Hortus already posted about that here: WoW Forums -> [Bug] Ret T6 gear has +spell socket bonuses
Your perplexingly vague comment about the set bonus not being changed - without any source to back you up - just smacks of a WoW forums whine about unfair developers who don't listen to us.
I discovered a seal of blood bug recently that blood elf paladins should keep in mind. If you judge blood while mid-swing, you will deal judgement damage but no white damage. If you use a judge/auto seal macro, you will do both seal and judge damage, but no white damage.
If you use a swing timer such as quartz, simply judge as soon as it reaches the end of the swing timer and your swing animation begins. You should see the yellow damage from the seal/judgement but no white numbers. I have tried to test this with seal of command, but have been unable to reproduce the effect of no auto-swing damage.
I did not see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread. If this indeed new information it would be worthwhile to repeat the process described and see if we can get any more insights into this bug.
I can't reproduce this bug. I use a judge/reseal macro, and I tried judging both mid-swing, and towards the end of the swing(before it was complete), and both judgement and white damage are dealt.
Just pasting relevant lines :
02:59'37.640 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Zrave for 654 Holy damage
02:59'37.750 Zrave's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 4421
03:00'00.890 Zrave's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 3633
03:00'01.406 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Teron Gorefiend for 675 Holy damage
03:00'04.265 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1734
03:00'28.609 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1521
03:00'28.718 Zrave's Judgement of Blood hits Teron Gorefiend for 634 Holy damage
03:00'32.218 Zrave's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 1227 (glancing)
I have been working on my ret pally for a while now and I hearing here and there that I will or will not be used for raids. My attack power is now getting up there and I'm starting to feel powerful now. Im seeing that I do more burst damage rather than dps and I have some massive crits.
However, is this the right spec for me?
I want to be sure I can get into raids and say to hell with the nay sayers. I love doing burst damage and being able to stand my own (wearing plate!) Someone once told me to stop wasting my time and make an arms warr since they have higher dps, dont use mana and last longer for raids.
I have tanked and healed before and never really cared for them. I want to be used in raids however and I love kicking ass when everything lines up. I wish only that there was some small increase in survivalbility. Shame theres not a sword and board spec that does damage lol.
I was almost looking at a shockie build...... haha
Let me know if I should just stick with this and say to hell with arms! I love my BE but I want to do the most damage I can and survive!
Reroll hunter, then mash a macro if you want the biggest personal DPS value and to survive.
However if you have a raid leader with above 60 IQ that can crunch some basic numbers a good Ret specced Pally can be one of the most valuable DPS slots in the raid. Once you factor in the damage increase that 3% crit to the entire raid, and 2% damage to your group is, your DPS value goes way up. Plus other intagibles such as an extra round of buffs and JoL/ JoW you can be very useful. Most people that think a Ret pally isn't viable in a raid just haven't played with a good one.
Oh and I beat an equally gear Fury/ Arms warrior in personal DPS, 90% of the time.
I can't reproduce this bug. I use a judge/reseal macro, and I tried judging both mid-swing, and towards the end of the swing(before it was complete), and both judgement and white damage are dealt.
I attempted to fraps this bug, but experienced some technical issues. In the meantime, this screenshot shows my combat log where I have a SoB hit and judgement but no white hit.
As a fair warning, I am a video capturing novice, so the quality is low and file size is high. It is about 200 mb for a 20 second clip, but you will be able to see the bug in action.
First swing: Parried
Second swing: Normal
Third swing: Only judgment of blood damage- no white damage or indication of a parry or dodge
Fourth swing: Normal
Fifth swing: Normal
Sixth swing: Only seal and judgement damage.
I hope this will help anyone trying to reproduce the bug or get some more insight into it. I've already posted the bug on the bug forum ( WoW Forums -> [Bug] Judgment of blood stopping white damage ). Feel free to add something if you can.
Last edited by Jaegan : 03/22/08 at 2:50 PM.
Reason: Posting of video
No, the reason that the T6 socket bonuses aren't being changed is because of the bug that exists when they're changed; you get both the old and new bonuses. Hortus already posted about that here: WoW Forums -> [Bug] Ret T6 gear has +spell socket bonuses
Your perplexingly vague comment about the set bonus not being changed - without any source to back you up - just smacks of a WoW forums whine about unfair developers who don't listen to us.
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).
And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.
Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.
Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).
If Blizzard really wanted to, they could fix many other things, too.
A few set bonus item points on a set most people don't have is small fry compared to other paladin issues. (Like scaling. Or hey, we could start another wave of complaining about the T6 4 piece ...)
As for not wanting to get someone in trouble, how does your information accomplish that goal? You get a few more grumpy paladins, and ... ?
And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.
Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.
Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
If your other posts are of the same informational quality, I think I'm all set. As Fiola just said, I'm sure there are quite a few things that "could" be changed but for whatever reason they aren't; your insinuation that this one isn't because one of the developers is lazy/incompetent/has a hatchet to bury without providing any actual information is just WoW forums trolling. If you can't quote sources just keep it to yourself.
In the unlikely case that you do actually have access to one of those avenues, you should use it to champion the cause of the unwashed masses in this thread rather than posting unsubstantiated flamebait.
Okay after browsing the last 40 pages of this thread I've found the retri Paladin 1.05 Version in debug mode compiled. Is it the last one or have I missed any other "release". I want to give it a try as the spreadsheet is bugging a bit much on German Excel ~~
Actually, that was an excuse, but if you want to just take everything Blizz says at face value, go right ahead. It IS a bug... however it is one that "could" be resolved if people really wanted to (more specifically, a person).
And of course I'm being vague... how could I be utterly specific and not get someone in trouble? If you had actually read one of my earlier posts, you'd know where I was coming from.
Personally, I take some offense to your assumption that I'm just some forum troll trying to bring my "argument" to some new level. Your lack of understanding of my position has created an unnecessary flame on these forums. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.
Either way, believe me or don't. Shouldn't make much of a difference in your personal life when it comes down to it. Shouldn't even really make much of a difference in most people's lives since not many people have access to avenues that lead to real changes, besides posting en masse.
I think it's best for all parties involved to drop the discussion of credible informaiton. It's detracting from the purpose of the thread , and putting jobs on the line.
I think it's best for all parties involved to drop the discussion of credible information. It's detracting from the purpose of the thread , and putting jobs on the line.
Don't take this out of context, or as a flame, or as a comment that the individual in question isn't doing their job - but generally if someone isn't doing their job, you bet damn well that I'd fire them, and so should every other employer. That's what you pay them for. I run my own company; if my employees think they can get away with not doing their job and continuing to get paid, they've got another thing coming.
Anyways, back to topic... Does anyone know if Seal of Blood or an aptly named equivalent has even been discussed in internal meetings? What I mean is that the math and evidence are pretty conclusive that Seal of Blood is far and away the superior Ret DPS seal, but nothing seems to have even been approached in terms of a solution. I just can't believe nobody at Blizzard would have taken notice by now given all the griping on their forums, and these forums as well.
EDIT: Edited for content/punctuation/grammar, it's super late here.
I attempted to fraps this bug, but experienced some technical issues. In the meantime, this screenshot shows my combat log where I have a SoB hit and judgement but no white hit.
As a fair warning, I am a video capturing novice, so the quality is low and file size is high. It is about 200 mb for a 20 second clip, but you will be able to see the bug in action.
First swing: Parried
Second swing: Normal
Third swing: Only judgment of blood damage- no white damage or indication of a parry or dodge
Fourth swing: Normal
Fifth swing: Normal
Sixth swing: Only seal and judgement damage.
I hope this will help anyone trying to reproduce the bug or get some more insight into it. I've already posted the bug on the bug forum ( WoW Forums -> [Bug] Judgment of blood stopping white damage ). Feel free to add something if you can.
Saw the video, all damage its there, there is no loss. Pay attention to combat log!
Third swing: Dodge, this only visualy appears later, right before the next swing.
Sixth swing: 804 hit. Visual right before next swing, looked like a wf attack.
Its a visual delay, but white attacks are there so is damage. No bug.
Reroll hunter, then mash a macro if you want the biggest personal DPS value and to survive.
However if you have a raid leader with above 60 IQ that can crunch some basic numbers a good Ret specced Pally can be one of the most valuable DPS slots in the raid. Once you factor in the damage increase that 3% crit to the entire raid, and 2% damage to your group is, your DPS value goes way up. Plus other intagibles such as an extra round of buffs and JoL/ JoW you can be very useful. Most people that think a Ret pally isn't viable in a raid just haven't played with a good one.
Oh and I beat an equally gear Fury/ Arms warrior in personal DPS, 90% of the time.
QFT I recently missed my first night of raiding since going ret in early January. The WWS was turned in, we were 3k under the raid dps of an equivalent night. They had no DPS fillin for the evening (i had a bit of an emergency) so they had an extra healer, but 3k DPS was missing. The raid leader says "Oh, this must be because of flasks and such not being used!" looking at WWS, flasks were used. The warlocks say "We must have not been dotting enough!" They had the same number of spell casts (within +/- 5%). Then the BM Hunter says "I had no JoWisdom, I had crap for mana!", but this was a correct statement. My personal DPS is around 1.2-1.3k, but the mana added to other mana using DPS'ers, along with the 3% crit (spell/melee/ranged), with 2% damage to my group, is significantly more substantial.
I do not claim that all of this dps is because of me, but I believe a few of my guildies now notice how used to having the extra mana/crit/dmg around they are. Although, it wouldn't be a raid if I wasn't berated in vent for my choice in spec. (Don't worry, it is all in fun... and I trashtalk all the DPS'ers I beat on the meters (which is all but 2 or 3))
Although, it wouldn't be a raid if I wasn't berated in vent for my choice in spec. (Don't worry, it is all in fun... and I trashtalk all the DPS'ers I beat on the meters (which is all but 2 or 3))
This is a really strange thing to say. In my raid , sure there is some competitiveness, but we don't trash talk each other, even if it's just joking. For the guy on the bottom of the pile, it's not a lot of fun and builds resentment. If you're not bottom of the pile, you might not know this.
Sure we look at damage meters but I don't think it's ever a race. It's more a competition with yourself to try and do the most you can. No one is berated for their spec, if you have such a horrible talent setup then you simply don't get put on the raid list. That said, everyone is willing to work their talent spec to the benefit of the raid, myself included.
If someone is under performing in any way, including people who over do it on the dps and cause wipes (we used to have a mage who did this) then the officers sort it out quietly and calmly. The point is the raid, the team. If the team is doing what is needed that is what matters.
I'm the only Ret pally in my raid. I raid most days these days but not all the time, and the times I am not there? They cope by having someone else in and play styles (for things like jow, set of blessings) adjust because everyone knows what they are doing.
Anyway, I came here hoping to see more info on the T6 4 piece bonus. I assume no new news and it's still crappy? It's so late in the patch development cycle now I very much doubt we'll see any radical changes. It's such a shame that something so important to our class gets over looked, for whatever reason. Is this the last patch before WoTLK does anyone know? Think we might see something when they introduce the S4 stuff? I'm not really up to speed on the expected timescale of this stuff.
Anyway, I came here hoping to see more info on the T6 4 piece bonus. I assume no new news and it's still crappy? It's so late in the patch development cycle now I very much doubt we'll see any radical changes. It's such a shame that something so important to our class gets over looked, for whatever reason. Is this the last patch before WoTLK does anyone know? Think we might see something when they introduce the S4 stuff? I'm not really up to speed on the expected timescale of this stuff.
The devs are waiting until WotLK to review Ret again. The goal is to make it dps Warrior and Ret Pally gear is the same, so a few things need some work like Seal of Command and mana regen.
2.4 will be the last patch (discounting 2.4.1+ bug fix patches), however if Wrath gets really delayed there may be another patch.
S4 will come out once Sunwell progress is going and once the devs feel S3 has run its course. Hard to tell when that is has being reached, but it will not be a couple weeks after 2.4.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The devs are waiting until WotLK to review Ret again. The goal is to make it dps Warrior and Ret Pally gear is the same, so a few things need some work like Seal of Command and mana regen.
If I may be devil's advocate here, I personally think that Blizzard knows very well what's wrong with ret paladins and how to fix it, but based on their "market research" it will sell more copies and keep more people hooked if they just give us small fixes here and there and keep saying "soon, next patch, next expansion everything will be better".
They will never truly fix everything, because whining about inequalities/hoping for fixes, is part of what keeps people hooked, which sustains the cash flow. It's all a money game.
This is the core of all (justified) complaints and why they will never really end.
I said this a few pages back, but Ret needs 3 immediate fixes in order to be "fixed":
-SoB for alliance
-Spell mechanics change (replace spellhit/spelldamage dependency with melee stat dependency for all our spells or alternatively let paladins gain some spellhit/spelldamage from equivalent melee stats)
-Mana issues (Some way to not be 100% dependent on raid for our mana, especially in the 0 mana/regen sunwell gear).
I can see it already, Sunwell hits and the whining will be legendary about these 3 points (especially the first one, given the extreme gap that will arrise as soon as paladins on both sides start getting decked out with sob-friendly sunwell itemization and the first WWS reports start showing up).
Sorry for the slight tangent, just some food for though I believe needed to be mentioned
Those first two points are vital i agree. I also think they are obvious which is a shame why nothing has been done. The 3 point I also agree with but I'm not so concerned about it as the first two. It won't matter how much complaining people do about it however, they won't fix it. They might fix it in WotLK but I suspect that in itself will bring a whole new host of problems, imbalances and difficulties, which will not be quite resolved until the following expansion after that, etc etc.
2.4 is a positive step, at least for me so I guess I can't grumble too much.
If we get no.1, no.2 will be less important since we won't be using SoC (partially gains from spelldamage) and JoC (uses spellhit!) anymore.
No.3 is partially a re-balance. The thing is, with great difficulty we've adapted and become accustomed to going an extra mile, almost no other class/spec has to. Spamming mana pots in 10 mans just to keep up is a big meh. Arena it's horrible to get mana burned/endurance fights.
PvP (without a healer) is a joke. My WSG routine revolves around taking the green leaf every time it's up.
Not to pick up old discussions, but it was really about gear scaling combat endurance for almost all classes/specs except paladins.
Yet a naked paladin and a paladin in t6 will be able to "fight" for the exact same duration pretty much since there's 0 regen.
The resurrection of this issue comes at a time when they decided to put us in one group with warrior itemisation in sunwell, which has 0 int. Even our T6 bracers/boots/belt have 0 int. Hence a mana mechanic has to be added.
For once, not more mana conservation (benediction/sanctified judgement), but actual mana REGEN would be the key. Evocate, AP -> mp5, damage -> mana, shamanistic rage, some sort of 2nd seal up (JoW), whatever, they can take their pick, there are lots of options.
Paladins as a whole have huge regeneration issues.
Look at every other class, they either don't use mana (Rogues, Warriors, Kitty Druids) or have some form of heavy activated regen ability.
Shamans: Mana Tide Totem, Shamanistic Rage
Priests: Shadowfiend
Druids: Innervate
Mages: Evocation
Warlocks: Lifetap
Hunters: Aspect of the Viper
Paladins: Nothing
Mana regen for all paladins is a huge problem, especially with another non-mana using melee class coming out in WotLK (Death Knights) to compete for raid spots with for two of our specs (and Holy Paladins already being replaced by-and-large by Priests and Druids). If our mana issues isn't addressed by the next expansion I will be more than a little angry at the developers for ignoring such a large oversight (especially if they want us wearing god-awful hit rating to the extreme fury warrior crap).
I think the devs are still worried about the old beta powerhouse that was the Paladin class (oh Holy Strike, how I miss thee). We remain to this day a class that is balanced around 12 seconds of immunity every 5 minutes (or, against any halfway decent team, 1.5 seconds of immunity every 5 minutes) for PvP, and now that the devs are hell bent on e-sport status everything is going to be balanced around that blasted arena.
All things considered though I think TBC has been a relative success for the class. The goal of TBC was to make hybrids viable in all three forms to at least some extent, and more or less it has been accomplished. Protection Pallys are almost universally accepted if not desired in some cases, Retribution has finally began to come into its own, and though Holy Paladins are now arguably the weakest healer in both organized PvP and PvE they still maintain their status and raid spots. Things sure could use a lot of work, but they are a lot better than MC 1.0 cleanse spam.
03/20/08, 7:43 PM
