Ran a little test this evening regarding JoW proccing off of Vindication.
I was in my PVP build, with 3/3 in Vindication, judged Wisdom on one of those Blasted Lands mobs and just auto-attacked it in my tanking gear for several hours, casting a Holy Light every 15 minutes or so.
I used the "Recount" mod, and these are the results I gained.
2736 hits, and 542 crits - thats 3278 white attacks.
In the time I gained 118'992 Mana from Judgment of Wisdom, divided by 74 - thats 1608 JoW Procs.
= 49.05% proc rate for JoW.
I would have thought I would have observed a slightly higher proc rate, considering I had the Vindication talent. Maybe time for a bigger sample. Any ideas?
This is a really strange thing to say. In my raid , sure there is some competitiveness, but we don't trash talk each other, even if it's just joking. For the guy on the bottom of the pile, it's not a lot of fun and builds resentment. If you're not bottom of the pile, you might not know this.
Pardon my poor word choice, I was fairly sleepy when posting. A few of my guildies (good friends) make fun of my retness. (They make fun of my "poor" dps, which is to say, higher than their dps. In other words, it is a joke, sarcasm, etc) Also a few of my friends (who I have known in RL or IG for over 5 years) end up lower than me in the Damage Meters, if I were to not point this out back at them, they would be sorely disappointed. Just believe me, there is endless <3 in the guild, yet... I still find room in my heart to hate them just a little bit for fun! (O.o)
Anyway, that was all based off of an offhand "funny" comment, so yeah.. just ignore it, we <3 each other.
I know Vindication does hit VR and the Weapons on KT, do we know if this actually lowers their DPS/Health? Or is it just a bug? (Wondering if I can justify putting more than the 1 point into Vindication)
I'm not exactly sure how to even test for the effects of Vindication.
Alright, I know its a few days late, but I needed to check my math a few times over. I fixed a ton of errors that I had in the last post, from rotations (for example, Moonkin) to mechanics (for example, Seal of Command now correctly procs Judgement of Wisdom while Seal of Blood does not). I also tried to include the talent build being assumed for each spec, though I am not positive of their accuracy in some cases (Mages in particular). This time I also included multiple cast rotations where needed.
That being said, this is still a major work in progress. I'm especially having problems with the Enhancement Shamans because of their wacky Windfury and Dual Wielding jazz, but I'll iron it out soon enough and update the list. Anyway, without further ado, here is version 1.0 of the patch 2.4 Judgement of Wisdom list.
These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.
Drinking Super Mana Potions on cooldown equals 100 mp5 Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users equals 130.88 Mp5 (Per player)
A couple of things I could use some help on:
1. Can Seal of Righteousness proc Judgement of Wisdom?
2. Does the DoT application of Seal of Vengeance proc Judgement of Wisdom?
3. Does the DoT refresh damage of Seal of Vengeance proc Judgement of Wisdom?
4. Can Holy Shield proc Judgement of Wisdom?
5. Can Blessing of Sanctuary proc Judgement of Wisdom?
6. Do we have a conclusive answer as to whether Vindication procs Judgement of Wisdom or not?
Last edited by flyingtoastr : 03/24/08 at 11:58 AM.
I believe there was some discussion buried in this thread where a Retadin in ZA noticed a precipitous decrease in HP once Vindication procced on a trash mob.
As I recall, because of how max HP works, this is only useful if the mob is at 86% HP or more, which in itself depends on how powerful your raid DPS is and how lucky you are on getting a lucky Vindication proc.
Vindication affects a mob's (or player's) "attributes." This means Str, Agi, Sta, Int, Spi. It does not mean Maximum Health or Maximum Mana pool.
Many (most? all?) mobs have 0 or very low stats. For an easy example, put a Blessing of Kings on a friendly mob (that will accept it, many cannot be buffed - try Naturalist Bite in SP or Akama on Illidan P1) and watch their Health not change. If they had Stamina to increase by 10% their Maximum Health would increase and they could be healed to this new cap.
As such, Vindication was mostly seen as a PvP talent (players have stats to reduce). The possibility (proved in a screenshot in this thread, or so I thought) that Vindication can proc JoW, even on immune mobs, made it desirable in PvE.
Theory to explain it not giving increased returns in the grinding test above:
Could someone check if Vindication only "procs" once on an application, then does not re-proc when it refreshes? This would lead to the grinding example not producing JoW procs regularly (Vindication only procced once). The fact that bosses are immune to Vindication would cause it to attempt to proc repeatedly, each time having the chance to proc JoW, too.
Otherwise we may have been fooled by the Combat Log again in the aforementioned screenshot. The double Wis proc right after Vindication in a log could be CS or WF or something else which didn't hit the log for another full second after the JoW proc or similar combat log lameness.
I apologize for the "noobish" post but, I've been having some trouble getting into raids as Ret spec. I know that part of the issue is that 1) We're already slightly melee heavy. 2) I'm a fairly strong healer.
I just have a sneaking suspicion my officers don't really believe in the contribution of ret paladins. I'm looking for something definitive that i can point to, to help illustrate the point. I was able to go to BT 1-4 as ret earlier this month due to a lack of dps, ended up top 5 on teron with like 1300ish dps (Progression level is 8/9 ATM). I WWS'd it, and pulled the top JoW & JoL receivers out here: JoW + JoL Chart
(Bohica is oddshot's pet)
What I see from this, is that JoW is powerful, but what it really seems to do is save mana pots for mages or elemental shaman, and a few lifetaps from Warlocks. I suppose that the mages could then use Destruction pots(Or another, not sure on whats avilable for casters).
I tried to use the JoTC contribution spreadsheet in the OP but I've found it cumbersome and difficult to use. Is there anything else similar that I can use, or any anecdotal evidence i can use to help change spec? I know i have some fine tuning to do with getting the rotation down a bit better, but that will come with time and practice, which is hard to come by atm.
Oh, and to add something constructive, Couldn't we use WWS to help confirm that Vindication procs Jow? The only Data I have available is the above teron fight: Rousse - WWS. I know it is a very small data sample, but i see 175 total tic opportunities[71 + 34 + 29 + 12 + 11 + 18] (IIRC consecration can only proc it on the first tic? so thats 142/8 = ~18) and 165 JoW procs. That'd have to be an obscenely lucky proc rate to not proc off of vindication which i had, unless i really messed up the napkin math.
Theory to explain it not giving increased returns in the grinding test above:
Could someone check if Vindication only "procs" once on an application, then does not re-proc when it refreshes? This would lead to the grinding example not producing JoW procs regularly (Vindication only procced once). The fact that bosses are immune to Vindication would cause it to attempt to proc repeatedly, each time having the chance to proc JoW, too.
That makes a lot of sense really. By some odd strange thing, it could be beneficial to us that mobs are immune to it, especially since it has very little bearing on how it effects their stats.
A true test would come by beating on something that has lots of hp, doesn't hit very hard and is immune to vindication. Any ideas?
Otherwise it's still in the top 5 (if you're using SoC), considering SoC and JoC still benefit from spelldamage and a static 120 AP + 80 Spelldamage is pretty hefty.
I thought vindication only procs Judgement of Wisdom on "immune" mobs (ala boss mobs), blasted lands mobs can be affected by vindication I believe.
This is an issue I've been trying to pin down for quite some time now (going back to page 33 in this thread). I always raid with 3/3 vindication (mostly since I usually don't bother to respec 0/20/41 for PVP), and ever since the 2.3 patch came out, I've noticed an inordinate amount of mana regenerated from JoW. Our WWS reports often show me with more JoW procs than the dualwielding enhancement shaman, and rapidfiring beastmaster hunters, even though I obviously have many less total attacks. So I'm about 99% certain that something strange is going on.
My initial thought was that the "<Boss> is immune to your vindication" message was proccing JoW, since that would definitely account for a huge number of "phantom attacks". However, when I tested this by soloing vindication-immune Stratholme bosses by only autoattacking with JoW up, I never once saw JoW proc twice off a swing where "Vindication immune" procced. So I'm thinking that this means that the phantom JoW procs are not likely to be coming from Vindication immune messages.
My next guess, is that maybe it has something to do with the same mechanic that makes you take damage from refreshing judgements on Zuljin phase 3. If each crusader strike counted as a new (magical) attack for every judgement that you refresh, that might add up to enough phantom attacks to explain all the extra JoW procs, and also explain why you get zapped on ZJ phase 3 as if you cast a spell.
So you mean by refreshing JoW which each swing, is casting a spell that actually also procs JoW? If that were the case then surely all of us would be getting loads of extra mana no?
Last edited by Buliwyf : 03/24/08 at 10:56 PM.
Reason: Capitals
My next guess, is that maybe it has something to do with the same mechanic that makes you take damage from refreshing judgements on Zuljin phase 3. If each crusader strike counted as a new (magical) attack for every judgement that you refresh, that might add up to enough phantom attacks to explain all the extra JoW procs, and also explain why you get zapped on ZJ phase 3 as if you cast a spell.
Crusader strike judgement refreshes do not cause you to get zapped on ZJ phase 3. I noticed that because I let my judgement (JotC) drop off, but maintained the other paladin's JoW for most of the phase.
It's only refreshing your own judgement with auto-attack that triggers the zap. (I've also never seen CS trigger a spell damage charge of DM:C)
As for JoW and Vindication, I'm gonna try using JoW instead of JotC and see what Recount records.
Crusader strike judgement refreshes do not cause you to get zapped on ZJ phase 3. I noticed that because I let my judgement (JotC) drop off, but maintained the other paladin's JoW for most of the phase.
It's only refreshing your own judgement with auto-attack that triggers the zap. (I've also never seen CS trigger a spell damage charge of DM:C)
As for JoW and Vindication, I'm gonna try using JoW instead of JotC and see what Recount records.
I'm thinking maybe crusader strike judgement refresh and melee attack judgement refresh uses different refresh mechanics?
Here is the theories that I thought out:
Melee attack applies a "new" judgement on your target, meaning if you got JoW(A) on a target, you melee hit, it'll then apply JoW(B) which is considered a "new spell". This will explain the "bugged" Libram of Avengement and how refreshing judgements with melee hits can proc "Spellsurge" enchant.
While Crusader strike refreshes the judgements on your target, meaning if you got JoW(A) on a target, you Crusader Strike, it'll then reset the timer on JoW(A) so you aren't casting a "new spell"
So you mean by refreshing JoW which each swing, is casting a spell that actually also procs JoW? If that were the case then surely all of us would be getting loads of extra mana no?
Whenever you have a judgement on your target, each of your attacks cause an offensive spells to happen, and so, have another chance of triggering JoW.
Look at the chaman's Grounding Totem. If you put any judgement on a cham, and if he casts Grounding afterthat, your 1st white hit will destroy it (edit: I meant, use the Grounding buff).
Same thing with mobs with spellreflect: Hitting them will instantly put you under the judgement you have on them.
That doesn't tells us if Vindication actually procs JoW, I just wanted to make sure that everybody could agree on that.
shard of contempt will out-pace DC:C I believe, actually. At least, bellator's spreadsheet tells me so
It will if you are a Dwarf, it won't if you are a Human, assuming the best possible equip, Dwarfs & Draenei are best of with DC:C + Shard of Contempt while Humans are better of with DC:C & Dragonspine Trophy, but this assume the ultimately best gear possible ingame. Didn't check Bloodelfs yet tho.
Blood Elves will be working with a Shard of Contempt and a DST since we have no appreciable benefit from spell damage and a great deal of benefit from haste, while lacking the expertise racial of humans.
Last edited by Rasputin : 03/25/08 at 12:53 PM.
Reason: too many commas!
Blood Elves will be working with a Shard of Contempt and a DST since we have no appreciable benefit from spell damage and a great deal of benefit from haste, while lacking the expertise racial of humans.
That's laying a pretty strong assumption that a Ret Paladin would have a chance at getting the DST before the nth drop. I know in my guild, considering the number of Rogues and Warriors without it, I won't be getting it anytime soon.
So the question arises. What comes after DST? I imagine it'd be TT, but I'm not 100% sure. My spreadsheet still shows the Darkmoon card as the biggest increase.
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
I was just discussing optimal gear choices. I believe the next best trinket is the Berserker's Call from Zul'aman, although the Tsunami Talisman would be close.
That's laying a pretty strong assumption that a Ret Paladin would have a chance at getting the DST before the nth drop. I know in my guild, considering the number of Rogues and Warriors without it, I won't be getting it anytime soon.
So the question arises. What comes after DST? I imagine it'd be TT, but I'm not 100% sure. My spreadsheet still shows the Darkmoon card as the biggest increase.
DST is also terrible for druids, and the best trinket ingame for paladins.
03/24/08, 1:10 AM
