Ayreon

I have some from ZA if you are interested.

Wow Web Stats
Loading...

 

DarKNecross

Actually I put my model for Mongoose into Bellator's DPS spreadsheet, and it's coming out about 10DPS above Savagery.
(for SoC)
Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10+7)/60)*1.2

Of course this doesn't take into consideration Mongoose refreshing itself prematurely, but I don't see that dropping its value that far.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

flyingtoastr

Interesting, to say the least. If this is true then we have a lot of changes to make to the standard model for Ret Paladins. As far back as I can remember we've been considering Savagery as a better sustained DPS enchant than Mongoose until a certain point where crit becomes greater than AP for DPS (I think it was somewhere around 2000 AP). I'd be interested in seeing some more on this (as we should be compiling a list of preferred enchants for the main page as well). If I can find a reasonably priced enchanter on the PTR's I'll try to get some preliminary reports of comparisons between the two.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

• Avitus

Haven't had time to post for a while, so here's a bunch of things, nice to see this threat is flourishing:

bellator's spreadsheet:

I'm using v17 which I assume is the newest one currently.

Done some more testing and noticed the following "bugs":

-Merciless Gladiator's Scaled Chestpiece is listing wrong stats.
-Turning "Vengeance" on/off (or taking different ranks) seems to have no effect on DPS
-Turning "Crusader Strike" on/off has no effect on DPS
(I know it's most probably never the case that you won't have those talents, but I'd like to see just how much they do add)
-Graph calc seems to work fine on Excel 2003, but takes an infinitely long time on my main PC running Excel 2007. Not that important I guess, but maybe you have an idea why



Also I'm wondering if the following could be added, they're just suggestions, though I feel they'd really move this spreadsheet one notch further towards completeness:

-[Alchemist's Stone], I know I've used this all the way up to Illidan, I'd love if it can be implemented in the spreadsheet. Also if the Equip Bonus can be considered in the "Time till OOM" calculation. This way we can finally see how valuable or negligible this trinket really is vs a "real" DPS trinket.

-Mongoose as an enchant is missing? I've hit over 2k self buffed AP with T6 gear giving tons of STR, so using mongoose to boost my crit was an option. Any chance this could be added? Would love to see if Savagery still pulls ahead or not with high AP gear.

-, the no.1 choice for ret paladins if you're over the hit cap already. I'm using it currently until the next patch hits (and human racial is butchered). Gives slightly more AP since it's pure STR and int instead of the hit.

-[Formula: Enchant Boots - Surefooted], going to be a possible enchant come next patch to meet the hit cap.

-Also possibly Boar's Speed/Fortitude boot enchants for those of us who don't take dexterity (12 agi), it's currently not possible to turn that off even.

-T6 2 set bonus as part of the "time till OOM" calculation as I guess this will be the aim for many paladins for their endgame sets. I've personally experienced a rough 20% proc rate when checking logs.

-Blood Frenzy, I think this is a farily important raid buff that needs to be added. It's used extensively in my guild.

-Ferocious Inspiration, any chance that can be added as one of the group buffs? According to our main Beast Mastery hunter it's up pretty much 90%-100% of the time once frenzy goes off and then throughout the fight.

-Expose Weakness, we also use this very frequently in my guild. I guess this one is a bit harder to implement, since it depends on how much Agi your hunter in question has, but according to one of our hunters it adds roughly 220 AP to all melee for a hunter in mostly T6 gear.


Thanks for all the hard work, let me know if you need a hand with the testing/debugging.

 

Fiola

Slight tangent - anyone have an explanation for how I attacked 3 times in .6 seconds with a 2H weapon?



That picture shows the following:
-5:39 - You hit the Lurker for 473
-5:22 - You gain WF attack
-5:20 - You crit the Lurker for 1293
-4:72 - You hit the Lurker for 561


The weapon I was using was Hammer of the Naaru (3.60 AS); I had a Shaman in my group for WF totem and I had just cast JotC ... So did a judgement trigger WF, or did WF proc itself, or ... ?

Of course, this happened in the first 5 seconds of the fight, so I took a dirt nap quickly thereafter. = P

 

galzohar

Leveling my paladin I ran across a couple times when I had 2 attacks hit right after eachother like you're saying, although I didn't look at the combat log times. I just excused it for being lag-related but now I'm not really sure... Any more info about this?

 

• Avitus

Weapons: Dunno why all the hub hub, but as some already mentioned: For alliance, slower, higher frontload damage weapons will always be supreme.

Why? Because despite CS being weapon speed normalized, SoC procs are NOT. You gain a lot more by having your AP bonus for your SoC procs multiplied by 3.8 rather than 3.5 for example. That's what makes weapons such as Thunder -> Stormherald and Torch of the Damned so great for ret paladins (especially human ones).

For belfs using SoB weapon speed should be pretty much irrelevant afaik, correct me if I'm wrong.



Haste rating: I did some pretty unorthodox testing a few days ago on the blasted lands mobs (the ones that never die).

The idea was, to detect the minimal difference in proc chances given current haste gear, I'd need 1000-10000 hit tests over hours/days to get reliable results.

So instead, I tried a sort of unorthodox, brute force test, the setup was basically a 8 man raid and got 7 shammies to give me chain heroism for 7x40 secs, juggling shammies into my party as their heroism cooldowns are used.

This way I'd get a whopping 30% haste, which would otherwise require tons of gear to achieve.

My swing speed with my Torch of the Damned 3.8 speed + 50 haste on mace + 32 haste rating from Girdle of the Lightbearer + Heroism + mongoose procs was: ~2.75 swing speed

Keep in mind, the goal here is not to get an accurate number, but rather to see if haste affects SoC proc rating in any way shape or form.

With this amount of haste, I was hoping it would be pretty obvious whether haste affected SoC procs or not, even over such a short duration, though I fully understand that this is a very rough test and that results cannot be quoted as accurate.


Theory:

1. Proc chance with a 3.8 speed weapon: 7/60 * 3.8 = 44.3% chance to proc SoC

PPM = 7

If haste does not affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ 7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~34 SoC procs, regardless of how many attacks I make.

2. PPM if haste DOES affect SoC: 0.443/2.75 * 60 = ~9.67 ppm

If haste does affect proc chance: Over ~280 secs (=~4.8 mins) @ ~9.7ppm I should get a ballpark range of ~47 SoC procs.



Now the difference between 34 SoC procs and 47 SoC procs is pretty huge even over such a short period.


My results were:

Time 288.33 secs

Melee:
76 hits
47 crits

[top]123 total

SoC:
22 hits
13 crits

35 total

(I also parried 18 attacks, which explains the increased number of attacks)

35 procs / 4.8 mins = 7.3 ppm


Despite the rough sample size, I can conclude that haste most probably does not increase SoC procs unfortunately. As such, haste is only good to increase autoattack dps for us, nothing more.

Disclaimer: Again I know this is a very rough test and I welcome anyone to run a more extensive test over more hits/time.

 

galzohar

It's not about haste increasing the proc chance. If you'd get 9.7 ppm you could say haste doesn't change the proc chance, as a same % of your attacks procced. According to your results, haste REDUCES the proc chance to result in the same PPM value.

Bottom line is haste doesn't affect SoC DPS at all according to the test in the above post.
Since haste doesn't affect CS or JoC either, we're left with haste only boosting white damage, which is a rather small % of the DPS compared to rogues/warriors, meaning haste will probably not be worth it unless the item is much higher level than what you're comparing it to or if haste has a lot lower itemization cost than I would expect it to have.

 

Prepared

Small amount of DPS? I have white damage in multiple combat logs, as well as my own, listing it at 45-50% of damage. I'd say haste may not be optimal, but it's certainly nothing to snark at.

 

• Avitus

Thanks for pointing out the obvious, rather than pointing to my typo :P

When I said proc chance, I basically mean procs, proc amount, procs per minute, ppm, not the proc percentage obviously.

Haste does not increase ppm

 

flyingtoastr

Exactly what I was going to say. White damage isn't a huge amount of our DPS, but its not a small amount either. Thats why stats like haste and armor pen aren't terrible for us (though not great either). Yes, there are other things that increase our DPS more, but they are nothing to avoid like the plague either.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Whitebushido

We've seen the math on SoC dps with haste, but since SoB is a 100% guarentee how does haste rank up against other stats?

I'm currently leveling my own BE Paladin and at first intended him to be prot, seeing as ret was a weak tree, but this patch looks like it might make it a very viable spec for raiding and I'm just trying to min/max my way through it.

 

DarKNecross

For SoC, haste just isn't worth the item cost when compared to other stats.
Almost all haste items out there sacrifice Crit in order to get Haste, which, as we can see, isn't worth the trade-off.

For SoB, Strength is worth more than Haste, which in turn is worth even more Crit.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Elzam

Has there been any approximate estimations on how, if any, the proposed 2.3 changes will alter the choice of gem selections for Retribution Paladins? With the advent of the 30 second Vengeance and the inclusion of yet more crit in the form of the 3-point Sanctified Seals, has anyone been able to thoroughly re-gem on the PTR in order to perhaps venture a decent guess at what the proper balance might be?

For example, currently on PTR in Retribution Gear when specced I will have 1848 AP / 30.63% Crit / 8867 HP / 5148 Mana. However, given that the bonuses of Improved Crusader and Libram of Avengement will be 5.48% more crit from only self-buffs, is it safe to say that many Paladins who formerly geared for crit (most likely as I had done in my gear; Inscribed Noble Topaz) will popularize replacing these gems to attain a lower crit percentage in favor of adding more +8 Str gems?

Or, on the contrary, how does the issue of longevity in a raid truly factor into the Blood Elf Ret Paladin's damage taken by Seal of Blood being returned as mana via Spiritual Attunement and healing? Is this excess of crit that I seem to be experiencing on PTR (and I would venture to guess many Ret Paladins are) more suitable to removing crit in favor of Intellect/mp5 or am I correct in assuming that a raiding Retribution Paladin is allowed more leeway in order to neglect Intellect and caster stats in favor of Str/AP due to the buffs and advantages of a raid setting?

I apologize if this is a lot all at once, there are just some itemization issues floating in my head that I feel that perhaps a regemming might be able to solve.

 

bellator

Hey guys, sorry for not replying over last couple of days...work This may become a bit of a monster.

When the spreadsheet was not public, i used to bold the items i had. Some of that must have carried over. This is all there is too it (wont effect anything):p

Re 1. - the ratings here are best not to be used. They were there for personal use when the sheet wasnt public. And yes, one of the drawbacks was the weapon top end/speed which needs to be factored in.

Re2. Yeah seems to be miles off. Correcte

3. Again these weightings are outdated. Before the front end SEP, for personal use i used to manually figure out weigthings at various points using set gear and increasing stats. I'd ignore these and use the SEP values on the main Character Sheet

Oops, sorry i fogot

These gloves are more than viable, best in game.

Whats the ppm of mongoose (for normal autoattack)? Will try and add it in to the sheet.

1 - This is because i called the shoulders the same as the chest, and this the shoulder stats were filtering through. Has been fixed
2/3 - In the originial notes i mentioned that both of these were not working, as a ret paladin without 5/5veng and CS is a holy pala :p. However both have been fixed and working
4 - Honestly, no idea. Equip really bad gear and run it. See how long it takes for better items to appear in the spreadsheet. It takes about 20-25 secs to run for me and my computer is pretty poor.


Alchemist's Stone - Has been added
Mongoose - Whats the ppm with white hits or effective uptime in a normal rotation? Will add as an estimation if i can get this info.
Glyph of the Outcase - Has been added
Boars Speed / Fortitude Added
Enchants can be turned to "None"
2 Piece Lightbringer added (20% proc from wowhead), assumed to proc of melee/SoC/CS/WF
2 piece Crystalforge added (35 mana reduction applied before benediction)
Blood Frenzy/Ferocious inspiration will be added today (both with 100% uptime. WF is a physical attack right?). Expose weakness will be added as a "Estimation" with 200AP increase


Blizz should take a note out of my book for implementing changes :p

Also:-
Some Blacksmith weapons will be added and world breaker will have a proc estimation attached to it.
CS will benefit from JotC and be normalised in next revision


Thank you kindly. Just keep letting me know where stats etc are wrong and ideas for new things.

 

bellator

Djardin, i'm sorry if i sounded too negative about including SoR. If i have time i will include it, but time is not really on my side at the moment. Whilst your numbers do suggest that SoR could potentially be worthwhile I think the melee scaling is slightly off if you look at the spreadsheet and there are a few other points which will limit SoR pve viability....

1) Scaline - Your numbers shows 226AP = 32.19dps increase. If you look at the model the actual numbers show that 1 itemisation point of strength is 0.55dps increase for SoC. Your SoR numbers show 1 +dmg = 0.3334 dps increase. Which would be about 0.39 dps increase for 1 itemisation point. Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included i dont see this hitting the 0.55dps increase needed to be viable from a scaleing stance.

2) Raid Buffs. Whilst things like misery might have a minor increase for a SoR build i feel more would be lost from BoK/Bom/Motw/Sa/FF/CoR etc and thus it would be hard from a raid buffs perspective for SoR to be viable

3) Group buffs. A SoR paladin would gain wrath of air and a spriest (for a little more consecration damage). However would lose out on Battle Shout, WF, SoE, Unleashed rage. This is a huge difference and again would make it very hard for a SoR paladin to compete.

4) Stats and itemisation. This gets a little more complicated. Lets divide stats into three categories:-

a) Raw Damage numbers (Str/+dmg)
b) Anti Miss Numbers (+hit / +sphit / WE)
c) Spike Damage (Crit/Agi/SpCrit)

Now lets assume point 1) is incorrect and Str/+dmg scale equally as well. Looking first at anti miss numbers, a SoR build would not use sphit. The reason being that SoR has a 100% proc rate off melee hits that miss. Increasing the hit chance of Melee/(and thus SoR)/CS would be far more beneficial than increasing the numbers of . There are very few items with +dmg +melee hit on them, thus limiting the viability of SoR. Now moving onto spike damage, a SoC build benefits from +Crit, however since SoR cant crit and JoR uses +spell crit, then +melee crit is devalued in a SoR build and +spcrit's value is also minimal, thus you would want a low crit build as it is a wasted stat. On the flip side haste would become more beneficial as it does with SoB, however this means that to gear a SoR paladin properly would require +dmg/Melee hit/Haste. Again, there is little/no itemisation for this and would make the paladin suffer.

As i said if i have time, i will try to model it as whilst i'm far from convinced SoR will ever be raid viable, i am intrigued as to the actual numbers.

 

flyingtoastr

At the moment crit isn't too valuable either (mainly due to aggro issues). Until someone calculates out the Crit versus AP point of inflection I'm going to go with the old mantra of getting the bare minimum crit to keep your vengeance up and then going straight for the attack power. I'm sure some of this will change in 2.3 with the threat reduction, but for now both stats are relatively lackluster.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

bellator

From the model, crit seems to catch up with AP at just a little over the 5000AP mark. Since the max AP possible when raiding is around the 4000 mark, there is still a little way to go.

It should be pointed out of course, whilst for a SoC build stats like crit/haste/armour pen are a little lacklustre, you should not just ignore an item because it has haste on it. Look at all attributes see their combined dps increase compared to others and then select. As there are a number if items with haste/armour pen which are in fact better than pure str items due to better overall itemisation

 

Kris

Guess this will make some people (*wink Cromfel) happy:
mmo-champion.com

 

Cathmor

A question for you all. Let's assume for a second that another paladin in your raid has Improved Blessing of Might covered, freeing up 5 points in the popular 5/8/48 spec (shown here - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)

I'm trying to determine where those 5 points should go instead. Not knowing much about the nature of movement speed increasers, I'm not sure whether Pursuit of Justice would be a worthwhile investment if I have Cat's Swiftness or Boar's Speed on my boots. It says right in the talent that it does not stack with other movement enhancements, so my inclination is to say that it's not worth my points if I enchant Boar's or Cat's. However, I have been told that the enchants are an 8% movement speed increase, while PoJ with 3 points in it will be 12%. Is the talent worth the investment if I have points to spend?

Also, if I do grab PoJ, that leaves me with 2 points still. In a PvE raid-oriented build, I'm thinking that 2 points into Divine Intellect might server well for increased mana pool.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Most raid ret builds I see have 5 points sunk into IBoM, how would you craft a build without it? Here's my take, with a placeholder point in Vindication for the 3rd PoJ point: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

 

Prepared

Yay, I can tank 5-mans still! :P

 

Prepared

I would probably put 3 points in Pursuit of Justice (I plan on having Surefooted on my boots), and then two points in Guardian's Favor. Handy on fights where Blessing of Freedom needs to be ready often, and also handy for either saving some other DPS, or saving yourself a little more often - even if it's just on trash, or in PVP.

 

Cathmor

So, to sum it up, 5/10/46 with 3/3 PoJ and Surefooted on boots? I believe I could buy into that. Would 2/2 Guardian's Favor be more valuable than 2/5 Divine Intellect, though? Is 4% boost to INT a worthwhile investment for a ret paladin in t5/t6 raids?

 

Lopaka

This is exactly what I was planning to do as well. It's nice to know someone else was thinking along the same lines, makes me feel like less of a scrub.

 

Djardin

Reread my post, my math doesn't include vengeance or melee/spell crit...

I got the idea to use SoR instead of SoC when I looked a the WWS of some ret pala, and divided the damage done by SoC (including crits) on a boss by the number of melee hits ... It turned out to be between 400 and 500 ... That is very far from what a SoR build can do. But of course if you increase your spell damage to increase SoR procs, you'll decrease your attack power and decrease your white hits.

It's true there is less spell damage buffs than there is attack power ones. But it doesn't change the fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC, even with less buff. And the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoR and the whites hits/CS of a ret pala using SoC gains as much from attack power buffs.

Even better, SoR scales with haste, SoC doesn't. And I'm almost sure it's the same with WF. (My theory is that WF can proc SoC but it doesn't increase the number of SoC proc you're getting per minutes, there is no restriction for SoR).

If you itemize hoping you'll get some buffs, you're nerfing yourself when you don't have them. And it's especially true for a ret pala. When a SoC based ret pala is pulled out of the melee group and doesn't get his BS, WF, SoE, UR ... he does crap damage.
A SoR based ret pala put in a melee group would probably do a bit less damage than a SoC based one, but he would do a lot more in every other groups.

So, if you're always in a DPS warrior/enh shamy/feral druid group as a ret pala, then you're VERY lucky and you should use SoC ... if not, then maybe it could be interresting to be flexible.

- T4/T5/T6 and now the arena S3 gear have all spell damage and melee hits on some parts
- Check some of the new 2.3 talents:

- improved JoCr added in the base spell ... it gives around +40 spell damage, almost useless for SoC ... kinda good for SoR.
- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR.
- vengeance duration increase to 30 seconds ... (so useless for a SoC pala with 30% crit, so usefull for a SoR pala with 20% crit)

About itemization, nothing prevent you to mix fury warrior gear with +hit/+haste and PVE ret pala sets with strength/spell damage, and there are indeed some BT gear with melee haste, strength and spell damage (a belt I think).