Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 13

Prepared · 10/20/07, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Here is todays test. This one didnt contain any manaregen from JoW, BoW or mana potions. I will do similiar test for JoW+BoW also later.

Is that duration in... seconds?

Cromfel · 10/20/07, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

Is that duration in... seconds?

Yes

Prepared · 10/20/07, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Yes

Oh, nevermind. I see where I was confused. I wasn't expecting commas.

That about matches up to my numbers, time-wise, and I am wearing a few hunter pieces on the PTR because I haven't been building my set. I'm guessing I need to hammer our Holy Paladins upside the head until they place Wisdom on bosses from now on.

Prepared · 10/21/07, 2:18 PM

Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.

But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!

bellator · 10/21/07, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

Perhaps I'm missing this, because of the lack of scripts, etc.

But... does the spreadsheet have a spot for ring enchants? I'm a max level enchanter, and with the patch I'm trying to compare the usefulness of having a total of +8 all stats, +24 spell damage, and +4 weapon damage. I'm assuming they're good in about that order, but I could be wrong!

The spreadheet does not current incorporate ring enchants (the main reason being the spreadsheet was intended for personal use only and i'm not an enchaner). It's Something i'll try to get in a later version. In the mean time, the best way to test these out is to edit the "base stats" section accordingly.

As for +weapon damage, this is not included in the model. I'm thinking of doing so, so that i can include sharpening stones etc, but unfortunatelt time is limited for me over the next couple of weeks.

galzohar · 10/21/07, 5:16 PM

Manually change the stats of the weapon to take the +4 weapon damage into account?

flyingtoastr · 10/21/07, 7:36 PM

UPDATE: Boomkin, protadins and retnoobs.

This may not all be accurate (but its the best I could find). These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. All talents/abilities are patch 2.3 versions.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Survival
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missiles x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

Shaman
Elemental
Typical Rotation: Lightning Bolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 111 Mp5

Lightning Overload assumed perfect 20% proc rate

Enhancement (Duel Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5

Windfury Weapon assumed perfect 20% proc rate on both weapons
Shocks assumed to have nontalented 6 second cooldown

Priest
Shadow
Typical Rotation: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Druid
Moonkin
Typical Rotation: Insect Swarm, Moonfire, Starfire x3, Wrath, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 123.33 Mp5

Paladin
Protection
Typical Rotation: Judgement, Consecrate, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Typical Rotation: Crusader Strike, Judgement, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 97.37 Mp5

Judgement assumed talented 8 second cooldown

Note that I really have no idea what the spell rotation is for actual Boomkin druids, I just looked up what I would think would be a decent rotation. If anyone can find some real information regarding their spells it would be most appreciated. All I have left to do is Warlocks now (which I am not looking forward to doing).

galzohar · 10/21/07, 8:02 PM

I think for many fights it's not a discussion about JoW being good or not, it's about how useful is helping keeping it up rather than having a holy pally stop healing every <20s to do it not to mention stay in melee range.

The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).

With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

DarKNecross · 10/21/07, 8:07 PM

Based on the Warrior DPS Spreadsheet, I think I found an accurate way for us to calculate the value of Mongoose.

Agility_Equivalency = 120*Proc_Uptime
Proc_Uptime=(1-(1-(Attack_Speed/60))^(15*(Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec+Insant_Hits_Per_Sec)))
    Weapon_Hits_Per_Sec=1/Attack_Speed*(1-Miss_Chance-Dodge_Chance)
      Dodge_Chance=5.6-(Expertise*0.25)/100
    Instant_Hits_Per_Sec=((6.8+10)/60)*1.2 (6.8 is SoC, 10 is CS, 1.2 is Windfury)

Can SoB proc Mongoose is the real question, though.

panny · 10/21/07, 8:37 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Enhancement (Dual Wielding)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 2.6 Seconds (both hands)
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 142.3 Mp5

Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).

flyingtoastr · 10/21/07, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

The only time the effectiveness of JoW will actually matter for the effectiveness of a ret pally is on fights where keeping JoW up is completely not doable for a holy paladin (for example when being in melee will result with stuns/manaburns/whatever more than just damage that the ret pally would've taken anyway and is probably worth taking for keeping JoW up).

As a holy pally I can say that keeping any judgement up on a boss is a pain in the ass (for lack of a better term). As a holy pally your job is to heal, and most of the time we're more worried about keeping people alive than keeping a judgement up (which leads to shouts of "why isn't wisdom up?!?!?!" from the casters). Being a holy pally refreshing judgements isn't impossible, but it cuts into your healing a lot, and on most fights in the game the sacrifice isn't worth it. You spend a huge amount of time running in, trying to hit a boss (since you have no melee hit rating its a pain), and finally running out.

Originally Posted by galzohar

With 2.3's change to improved crusader it's even more of a "easier keeping judgements up" over "bringing judgements to the raid", as the ret pally's main "perk" of 3% raid-wide crit can be applied by any paladin that has 8 spare points (which can be easily done with the standard 42 in holy while even keeping kings). Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The 'death' of ret utility because SC is being moved to be in range of the other specs is unfounded. Yes, there will be some raidbitch holydins who pick it up. But in all honesty most holy pallys go for Imp. Conc Aura (because it really is that good, even in PvE) over anything in the ret tree. Protection pallys are in a much better position to grab it, but their tree is so bloated to begin with there isn't much they can move to put 3 into it. So it still remains a mainly ret talent, just a little higher in the tree.

Originally Posted by panny

Did you factor in Flurry? (Weapon attack speed becomes 2.0).

No, I didn't use any haste effects whatsoever to make the math simpler and for it to apply to more situations. Since flurry is a proc on crit it can have a much different uptime based on each person's crit percentage/luck, and it was just easier to assume it doesn't exist.

Ysabelle · 10/21/07, 9:03 PM

Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests from ZA? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.

Cromfel · 10/21/07, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ysabelle

Anyone back from the PTR with some heavy raid dps tests? Curious to see the dmg we can put out now with the threat reduction. I'm hoping its something in the range of Enhance shamans now.

Every test that I have done in remotely competitive raids indicate that we are doing pretty well. Its very hard for Retribution Paladin to find well geared raid without predjudice, as majority of these unfortunately plain ignore us. But best shots I have was some german group who had BT/Hyjal level fury warrior, 2 T5 level rogues and BT/Hyjal level tanks I was competing just fine in DPS with everyone else.

Its just real pain in the ass to find good group where you can go all out.

galzohar · 10/21/07, 9:15 PM

Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...

Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.

From what I've been reading on these forums more often than not they do their best to keep JoW up so it *is* usually the case of letting the pally spend more time healing rather than being the deciding factor if JoW is going to be up there. And for those fights the actual effectiveness of JoW is irrelevent for how good the ret pally is. Then again when you have 3 judgements worth keeping up having a ret pally keep them up with crusader strike saves the time for 3 healers from keeping judgements up, which can be estimated in terms of benefit to healing. However comparing the value of the DPS loss to the value of the healing gained when you bring a ret pally is a very hard thing to do.

Aramul · 10/21/07, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Why is imp conc aura that good? If it adds to the talented % uninterruption you just get 100% both with and without it, as well as any other healer partied with you. Assuming it does work like that the only class that would benefit from imp conc aura is a partied warlock, but the only situation I see you party with a warlock is when you're using devotion anyway...

It also decreases Silence/Interrupt duration, allowing the Paladin and his group members to come out of AE silences to get important heals on the tank earlier.

Originally Posted by galzohar

Even though from what I heard it's not like that, if it actually multiplies and not adds (in which case you can never get 100%), changing conc aura from 30% to 45% would change you from having 79% uninterruptibility to 82% uninterruptibility, or reduce interrupts from 21% to 18%. 21/18=1.166 and I think getting interrupted 17% more is really not that big of a deal.

Concentration Aura is additive, not multiplicative. The untalented aura plus Spiritual Focus is enough to avoid all spell knockbacks.