Khaelarys

What exactly are you saying here? That when not in an ideal group, or when you're placed into a caster group, that a traditional ret paladin should be using SoR? Or the spec you suggested with improved Righteousness would be better dps in non-ideal groups and the proper itemization? Are we talking just the damage from the seal itself?

 

Forthright

I'm really enjoying the read so far, but I'm wondering what the dps cycle looks like if you weave Consecrate in. I'm considering an early post that suggested an Alchemist's Stone to more or less permanently maintain Consecrate, but I'm not sure if it takes priority over Judgement in a cycle. Assuming max rank of both.

With the change to Mana Potion Injectors (non-engineers can now use them) and considering how much dps rank 4 consecrate adds, I'm taking a serious look at 'paladin' items with +sd.

 

Fiola

He's saying there are conditions, or possible conditions, where SoR will outDPS SoC. (Seal DPS comparison)

"SoC is the best DPS seal" is ancient paladein dogma which was strictly true before TBC - but with all of the changes that came with TBC (SoV + SoR, SoR weapon speed normalization, passive haste, access to WF), that may no longer be true in all cases.


Those who are serious about maxing their "Raid DPS" may want to take a serious look - we should at least know *why* not to use SoR.

 

bellator

Here is the new Paladin dps spreadsheet version 1.8. Read the last few pages of the thread to see what has been added to it:-

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I have also put together a rough version of the spreadsheet which can be used to model SoR:-

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Notes:-

This version models in SoR/JoR/Consecration. It includes some extra +dmg items, some gems/enchants etc. However it is far less complete than for SoC items.

There is the Imp Judgement of Righteousness talent and wrath of air totem included and an option in the play style to include max rank consecration spamming.

Please Note that when setting up buffs/consecration spam pay attention to which dps group you are in. If you are in a melee group with WF etc etc then you shouldnt turn on max rank consecration spam as you wont have a shadow priest to support you. If you are in a caster group you can put consecration on but must turn off things like WF/battle shout etc etc. Putting everything on is an unrealistic option and will make SoR dps look far greater than it is.

Conclusions for model:-

When comparing a SoR gear build to a SoC gear build, it can be seen that being put in a caster group and allowed to spam max rank consecrations is better for the SoR build then being put in the melee group. Both significantly increase dps but the caster group slightly beats the melee group option.

When it comes to effectiveness of str in SoC build to +dmg in SoR build, the str option does have a slightly bigger impact on damage. However the difference is a lot closer than i imagined.

However in terms of output dps, the SoC build did beat the SoR build by 200-300dps depending on buffs etc. This is due to all the reasons i mentioned earlier. Scaling (whilst not as bad as i thought) did play a role. Then theres the raid/group buffs problem and itemisation problems mentioned. With better itemisation i'm sure this could be reduced to about 100-150 dps difference, but for the moment, SoC is still the superior build

Play around and have fun with the SoR version, but please be careful as if you set up buffs/consecration usage unrealistically, you will get unrealistic SoR numbers.

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Djardin, have a play with the new model. A few points regarding your post....

I'm sorry, but the first quote of mine you used had the line "Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included"....i did read your post properly and included these factors.

The fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC with less buffs is irrelevant as you have to take into account all the buffs the paladin will have which will make SoC superior to SoR.

This isn't entirely true, as a SoC build will have more melee crit, which will have a multiplicitive effect on the white/CS gains from AP.

Here's one big problem with the SoR build. To be able to use consecration, you need a shadow priest in your group which means you won't get WF. Even if SoR is better with WF than SoC you lose the big chunk of consecration damage through not having a shadow priest .

Firstly whilst a SoC based paladin might lose more outside of a melee group than a SoR paladin, if inside the group the SoC paladin was doing more dps then there is no reason why outside of the group (even after the bigger loss) he is still doing the same/more dps than the SoR paladin.

Anyway, it's besides the point. Being put in a melee group isn't "Very lucky" it's sensible. Any end game raid leader will know that ret paladins gain an awful lot from being in a melee group (probably more than any other class). If there isnt a spot in a melee group the the ret paladin, then you dont bring the ret paladin to the raid as there are far better dps choices available who don't scale as badly outside the melee group


2 pieces of S3 gear have hit. They also have wasted points in resiliance and excessive stamina. 1 Piece of lightbringer and 2 pieces of crystalforge have hit. And all of tier 5/6 waste points in intellect/strength and have large portions of crit which isnt ideal for SoR. Not saying these items are all bad, but far poorer itemised compared to some of the Str/Crit gear that can be found

My model above is based around 2.3 talents. So the marginal extra benefits these will give SoR compared to SoC build has been included. I do think you're exaggerating the effectiveness of these a little however.

 

bellator

This depends on the level of consecration. Alchemists stone is 8 mana per second gain. Max rank consecrate is 82.5 mana per second loss. Min rank is 15 mana per second loss. Min rank consecrate without spell damage but with JotC would give about 36 dps gain.

 

bellator

Have waffled on about SoR previously. I think in short, the 3 main reasons why not to use the seal is :-

1) Slightly poorer scaleing of +dmg with SoR than str with SoC
2) Buff wise, melee group buffs effect SoC by "X" amount and caster buffs increase SoC by "Y" amount (X>>Y). With SoR, the effect melee buffs have is <X but the effect caster buffs have is >Y. However melee group buff effect on SoC is greater than caster group buff on SoR
3) Itemisation wise SoC wants str/hit/crit which we can get by stealing warrior loot. SoR wants +damage / melee hit / melee haste. Good itemisation of these stats does not exist without points being wasted in crit/str/resiliance etc.

 

• Avitus

JoC is spell hit.

 

Fiola

And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.

If you can hit 5+ targets with Consecrate, your +dmg scaling from consecrate alone will blow away AP scaling. (and you want to be using a shield anyways if you're going to "tank" a few mobs)


Yeah, AoE packs aren't that frequent, but if you have the +dmg gear already (your +healing gear may work fine for that purpose in 2.3), and if it's the best tool for the job...? The point isn't to just recognize the best overall DPS seal - it's to recognize where the other DPS seals fit into the arsenal.


I'd also question if an SoR build is really "wasting points" in crit/str - autoattack is still a major portion of our damage, and a pure +dmg item will rarely provide more overall DPS than a combination Str/+dmg item.



To rephrase my thought - ability scaling depends completely on how you're using the abilities - and the way you use your abilities depends on the fight. So what are the best abilities to use against single targets? Double targets? AoE packs?


Boss fights are generally single target and thus all of this discussion should apply to that type of fight; but how about maximizing damage in fights with strange gimmicks? For example, Morogrim with the murloc packs - would a +dmg build do more damage due to the use of consecrate, or would focusing on the boss with the melee build yield more damage?

 

Nicolai

I tend to think you'd get more out of putting those 2 points somewhere in the Retribution tree. That's personal preference though.

 

Cathmor

Well, the choices are IBoM, Vindication, Deflection, Eye for an Eye, Improved Ret Aura, or Divine Purpose. If you think that 2 points in one of those talents is better for PvE raiding than either shorter cooldown on BoP/longer BoF duration or 4% more mana, please, state your case.

My view:

IBoM is 44 more AP per person at 5/5. 2/5 is about 17 more AP. I'm not feeling it, plus my assumption was that one of the holy paladins is covering might.
Vindication doesn't work on boss mobs in raids. I spec for bosses, trash can be dealt with.
Deflection - I shouldn't be getting hit, thus more parry isn't what I'm looking for...
Eye for an Eye - can NPC spells crit? Don't think they can...
Imp. Ret Aura - I'm using Sanctity
Divine Purpose - Again, shouldn't be getting hit. Seems like a PvP talent to me.

Thoughts?

 

Zeratull

IBoM would be my choise since it's the only one of those which actually gives you a DPS benefit in PvE and would buff you almost whole the time. And like you were thinking, NPC's can't crit you with spells so Eye for an Eye won't help you.

 

Bury

What is 4% more mana for you? For me at 4000 mana, that's a measly 160 mana, or about 10 intellect's worth of mana. I think going for BoK might be better for situations where you'd be the only paladin--seems plausible in heroics and ZA.
On the other hand, Spiritual Focus seems invaluable if you ever PvP.

 

Nicolai

I think it's pretty safe to assume someone else is picking up the Imp BoM.

I don't have a case for any of your other options. If you're strictly a PVEr, then 4% from DI is your best bet I suppose. I was assuming since you were thinking of Guardian's Favor you might want to give yourself a PVP boost.

Strictly PVE, I think teh DI is your best bet. They're pretty much throwaway points though, given how little INT is likely to be on your Ret gear.

 

bellator

Whilst i agree that +dmg gear would be better to consecrate AOE packs, and that in theory on morogrim if the murlocs were tanked on top of morogrim your total damage might be increased by using +dmg gear and SoR, it's essential to look at the situation in a realistic raid scenario.

99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.


Maybe the term "wasting" was inapproproate. Looking at the spreadsheet. +dmg is 70% more effective at increasing dps than strength and 100% more effective than crit. Thus with this kind of difference, even with the diminishing returns of stacking one stat, pure +dmg may still be better than bringing crit in.

 

Djardin

- JoC is around 5-6% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in strength
- JoR is around 15% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in spell damage

 

Djardin

Nothing prevent you from using concecrate rank 1 ... easily spammable during a boss fight without shadow priest and does around 80 DPS per target in spell damage gear, more if you switch to a 1H/shield on a pack.

Can't wait to play with your new spreadsheet

 

Fiola

Well, a realistic raid scenario depends on your guild's actual class balance. I'm rarely in a melee group, and I heal at least 50% of my raids (on bosses). I'm personally more likely to see a S-Priest in my group than a Shaman. (My guild has 1 raiding Enh. Shaman and 3~4 raiding S-Priests)


My damage contribution is mainly on trash - and while trash is not sexy, one still need to kill their way through it to get to the boss. Assuming you're already being used in a DPS role, what should you be doing to maximize damage for an AoE pack?


Going back to the boss scenario - what does it mean to "run oom and cripple your DPS"? For mana usage - is it better to spend 660 mana dealing 8000 damage to a murloc pack, or 236 mana for a 1.5k CS? (Using made-up numbers)


But anyways, I'm just throwing out some random thoughts here. Single target DPS is going to be the most common scenario a DPSing paladin will deal with; assuming ideal group setup, melee-focus'd gear will probably yield the best returns.

 

• Avitus

Hmmm I'm pretty sure that really doesn't need pointing out, does it? With high spelldamage gear, SoR is better than SoC yes.


Point is, is a ret paladin traditionally used as AoE damage? And can they compete with good mages/locks in AoE damage? I'm pretty sure the answer here is no to both, this is from extensive experience, yes even on undead hyjal trash.

I feel and this is just a personal opinion, that we're currently going beyond the scope of this thread, which is purely about competitive ret DPS.

Can SoR under optimal conditions (gear/buffs/group etc) out DPS SoC under optimal conditions in any of the currently existing boss fights? I believe the answer is no here.

 

• Avitus

Your exact quote is "- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR."

Just saying this change is most definitely not "useless" for JoC since JoC is spell hit, regardless of how much JoC contributes to a ret paladins overall damage.

 

Fiola

The more important question is if you should bother using AoE damage abilities if AoE will yield more overall DPS than single target damage abilities.

For boss fights, I think you could make the case that the extra AoE damage doesn't help kill the boss faster; thus you should focus on single target DPS, which does kill the boss faster.


For trash, especially AoE packs, you are trying to dish out as much AoE damage as you can. I'm assuming you're already in the raid, and that you're being used as DPS (rather than swapping you out for an extra mage/warlock for trash-clearing). In that case, what abilities should you use? SoC w/ a 2h + consecrate ? SoR w/ a 1h/Shield + consecrate?


And there's a very wide range of content where Ret is looking to be "competitive" - it's not just about single target raid boss damage. There's 5-mans, PvP, etc.

I can understand skipping the PvP scenarios - but Ret paladins who want to be raid DPS should develop that skill in the 5-mans, too. Furthermore, being able to do a 5-man instance and come in as #1 damage done/DPS is a great way to promote "Ret DPS awareness".

I think the overall goal of this thread is to squeeze every last drop of damage out of our class.


And what about realistic conditions?


Theoretically, casters can chain cast their abilities - but realistically they have to deal with lag. Ideally, we do the best damage with a Shaman for WF, Warrior for BS, Feral druid for LotP, and a S-Priest for mana regen. Realistically, the S-Priest will not go in a melee group, and even the paladin may not "deserve" a spot in that melee group.


Realistically, there are situations where SoR is better. All I'm asking is that we identify and recognize those situations.

We're technically not "viable raid DPS" right now, so why embrace old dogmas? = P

 

flyingtoastr

Yes its real. Now everyone can stop complaining that ret pallys fail at tanking (o.0).

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Cromfel

Now I can give my self permission to grab Redoubt while taking hit talents

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Prepared

Hear-hear! (Or is it "here-here"?)

 

xellos

Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.

 

• Avitus

I did some digging, almost everywhere I saw a 1 ppm listed.

However, quiet a few people I asked said they experience a much higher proc, which is the same as my personal experience.

After some further digging, the answer was pretty obvious: Instant attacks like CS proc Mongoose too of course. /doh

Since Mongoose is a PPM, slow weapons have a higher chance to proc Mongoose for instant attacks.

For example, a 3.8 speed weapon would have a 1/60 * 3.8 = 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose every CS.

So atm (pre-2.3 buff) CS adds 6*6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.38 ppm

Post 2.3 CS should add 10 * 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.633 ppm

I'm not certain how JoC/SoC/WF proc Mongoose, I'm halfway suspecting at least JoC and SoC proc Mongoose, not so sure about WF.

My personal experience is something like 50% uptime, which would correlate with 2ppm, however I can't say anything for sure till I do some testing.

For now, 1.38ppm with a 3.8 speed weapon is a minimum, a lot more if JoC/SoC and/or WF apply.