Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 14

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.

I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o

Ankler · 10/25/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o

Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.

Agonar · 10/25/07, 5:26 PM

Im not sure how i have to understand this changes actually.

1) Does that mean they are removing the EXTRA spell dmg compared to Season2 gears to give more strength?

OR

2) Does that mean they are removing ALL the spell dmg from the season 3 set? Because if im not mistaken we can practically consider +spell dmg to be +armor penetration when using SoC.

Not sure about the good interpretation :\

Meuble · 10/25/07, 5:26 PM

Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.

And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.
Since they're getting armor penetration all out, maybe there's no point in testing Executionner for rets (apart from the ohsosexy skin, of course)... any toughts?

Agonar: D'oh. Good point.

Cathmor: Yeah. Or that we're gonna have yet-another-talent in ret, giving SD from AP. Like your way better tough, we already have a lot of points to put in that tree.

Cathmor · 10/25/07, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Meuble

And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.

Perhaps it's a sign that they'll be changing Judgement of Command to be affected by AP instead of spell damage...

Fiola · 10/25/07, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Agonar

Im not sure how i have to understand this changes actually.

1) Does that mean they are removing the EXTRA spell dmg compared to Season2 gears to give more strength?

OR

2) Does that mean they are removing ALL the spell dmg from the season 3 set? Because if im not mistaken we can practically consider +spell dmg to be +armor penetration when using SoC.

Not sure about the good interpretation :\

Re-read the link, Drysc edited his post.

Originally Posted by Drysc

The season 3 retribution set has been changed. We're removing the Armor Penetration and Spell Damage that was being added to season 3, and moving those stat points into Strength. Those changes should be visible in an upcoming PTR build.

[ Post edited by Drysc ]

So S3 is losing 1 +dmg, if someone else's numbers were correct. = P

Forthright · 10/25/07, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

JoC is spell hit.

Pretty sure that's a misquote, I don't recall making that comment.

galzohar · 10/25/07, 7:00 PM

And I'm almost sure it's the same with WF. (My theory is that WF can proc SoC but it doesn't increase the number of SoC proc you're getting per minutes, there is no restriction for SoR).

For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?

Fiola · 10/25/07, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?

There was a change many patches ago that removed the ability of procs to proc off of each other.

It was causing something silly like
White hit -> Hand of Justice -> Sword Specialization -> Hand of Justice

I'd guess they did something similar to WF + SoC. (ie: The WF proc is flagged as a proc and not allowed to trigger SoC).

Can WF trigger other types of weapon procs? (Wound procs, Fiery, etc?)

Rheyah · 10/25/07, 7:38 PM

I don't mean to shit up the theorycraft thread but if Blizzard follow through on this logic and do, infact, shift Judgement of Command to be AP based by some degree then.. Well. About the only way this patch could be better is if it came with a foot massage, a handsome guy with a huge feather and a plate of strawberries.

Djardin · 10/25/07, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

For that to be true they'd have to change the proc chance per hit based on wether you have WF or not - and I doubt it happens. Then again I was surprised haste was changing the proc chances - does it happen also with other PPM mechanics in the game such as weapon enchants (where haste keeps same PPM / reduces proc chance per hit)?

I stated that based on analysis of WWS logs ... usually, if you divide the number of SoC proc by the number of melee hits, you get low SoC procs % when the paladin has got WF. But if you substract the number of WF attacks to the number of melee hits and divide that by the number of SoC procs ... then you magically find the normal SoC proc % ...

For example :
WWS

white hits : 212 hits + 117 crits = 329 white hits
SoC procs : 68 hits + 46 crits = 114 SoC procs

% SoC procs : 34% ... a bit low no ?
76 WF attacks, so that's 283 normal hits

114 SoC procs for 283 normal hits would be around 40% ... seems better

Hoh well ... this is pure theorycrafting.

galzohar · 10/25/07, 8:18 PM

fiola's post seems to explain your WWS logs.

There was a change many patches ago that removed the ability of procs to proc off of each other.

So WF also loses power on a ret pally compared to other DPS classes, as like haste it only bossts your white damage, which is not as high of a % of your damage as the white damage of a rogue/warrior. All of these make it seem less and less likely for the paladin to actually get into the melee group, and would probably be treated like hunters and go into the leftover group and probably get just FI and/or trueshot and maybe shadow priest (if your raid has 3). That is unless you actually only bring 2 rogues, DPS warriors (+enhance shaman) as your entire melee dps aside from the ret paladin.

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 8:31 PM

Didnt they say that SoB procs off WF procs? That would contradict the proc from proc "rule"

Fiola · 10/25/07, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Didnt they say that SoB procs off WF procs? That would contradict the proc from proc "rule"

We call SoR (and thus SoB) procs, but they're guaranteed. There's no weapon speed (that I know of) you can use where SoR or SoB will not proc.

bellator · 10/25/07, 8:44 PM

Regarding WF+SoC. So it's definately confirmed that WF can't proc SoC? I alwasy thought (and coded) that WF could proc SoC providing the white hit that procced WF did not itself proc SoC. So you could only have 1 SoC per swing max. Would be good to get this confirmed to get the model calculation 100% correct.

Originally Posted by Rheyah

I don't mean to shit up the theorycraft thread but if Blizzard follow through on this logic and do, infact, shift Judgement of Command to be AP based by some degree then.. Well. About the only way this patch could be better is if it came with a foot massage, a handsome guy with a huge feather and a plate of strawberries.

I hate to play devil's advocate but if such changes like a JoC change didn't go through, i would actually describe 2.3 as a disappointment (pops divine shield to grant immunity to flames).

Let me explain. I am very grateful of the changes that have gone through and think they are great, however when we look at the three main paldin changes that have occured in 2.3 they are:-

1) Increase in dps due to CS cooldown reduction.
2) Reduced threat
3) More stamina for prot paladins.

The CS change is simply an un-nerfing of an ability which should never have been nerfed and was simply a nerf as a result of major crying from others at an imbalance at 60. It's taken blizzard 8 months to rectify this.
The issues with threat and stamina are again something that are not new. Basic game theory mechanics meant these issues have always been around, it's just taken time for people to become more and more vocal about it. Threat and stamina should have been balanced at the start of TBC not 8 months in.

Now I don't mean to sound ungrateful, as such changes are welcome. Finally our class gets some of the fixes desperately needed. But really, these weren't exactly compicated game altering mechanics which would need a lot of time and effort to balance. They were pretty basic and long overdue.

Blizzard talked about extra utility (i recall a blessing and seal/judgement discussed at blizzcon which were quite nice) and about re-vamping the ret-abilities to be balanced around melee attributes with spell damage. Such changes would have taken more time, effort and resources.....and we have yet to see any of them appear.

So whilst it's nice to have these changes, i feel so far we've just been given quick, basic, obvious and long overdue fixeswith no real effort gone into the more complex class defining areas.

But that's just my two cents.

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 8:51 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Blizzard talked about extra utility (i recall a blessing and seal/judgement discussed at blizzcon which were quite nice) and about re-vamping the ret-abilities to be balanced around melee attributes with spell damage. Such changes would have taken more time, effort and resources.....and we have yet to see any of them appear.

Well, I may have something up for the possible utility. But its way too early to speculate about it. One thing I can quarantee that they are fully aware of the utility problems, and I have my hopes up for something being fixed on that side. We will see how things evolve.

flyingtoastr · 10/25/07, 9:17 PM

Looking at what Blizzard has said, I think they're planning on doing to Ret pallys in WotLK what they did to feral druids in TBC. In Vanilla ferals were one of the biggest joke specs in the game, then TBC came out and they became the best tanks in the game (by overbuffing) for a short time. In that time people went from "lawl feralz" to "LF tank bear preferred". In other words, by overbuffing the spec until it gained acceptance then reigning it back in they made feral druids accepted and even desired. I could see the same thing happen to ret pallys in WotLK. The devs have said they don't want to do any major class reviw patches anymore, so the logical place for an overhaul of an entire tree would have to be the next expansion. Thats just my 2 cents though.

Originally Posted by galzohar

So WF also loses power on a ret pally compared to other DPS classes, as like haste it only bossts your white damage, which is not as high of a % of your damage as the white damage of a rogue/warrior. All of these make it seem less and less likely for the paladin to actually get into the melee group, and would probably be treated like hunters and go into the leftover group and probably get just FI and/or trueshot and maybe shadow priest (if your raid has 3). That is unless you actually only bring 2 rogues, DPS warriors (+enhance shaman) as your entire melee dps aside from the ret paladin.

White damage is still a decent majority of our damage. I can not fathom where people are getting all this "your melee attacks are nothing" notions. Ret pallys still gain a huge amount of DPS from windfury, and as a melee class is there a reason you would take them out of the melee group? Ferals get nothing from WF, running 3 rogues is just asking for trouble, and hunters are lackluster at best.

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 9:28 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

White damage is still a decent majority of our damage. I can not fathom where people are getting all this "your melee attacks are nothing" notions. Ret pallys still gain a huge amount of DPS from windfury, and as a melee class is there a reason you would take them out of the melee group? Ferals get nothing from WF, running 3 rogues is just asking for trouble, and hunters are lackluster at best.

Random Illidan farming guild WWS example
Paladin
Windfury Attack 21
15 * Melee Average 1243
6 * Melee Crit Average 2843 (30%)
Damage 35703

Rogue
Windfury Attack 49
35 * Melee Average 447
14 * Melee Crit Average 975 (30%)
Damage 29295

Total difference: ~20%

Are there better ways to measure WF gains roughly? I mean, thats ~20% more damage gained from that 1 WF spot. I have checked multiple WWS logs and they all give similiar results. If you have Shaman + Warrior + 3 rogues and Retribution Paladin. Its no brainer to not let the Retri pala in the melee group to give +2% damage to whole group and get the WF.

Djardin · 10/25/07, 9:39 PM

Thx a lot Bellator for the SoR spreasheet update

I played a bit with it and it seems kinda good. I noticed several things that seemed wrong:
- sanctified seals give +3% spell crits as well
- there is a flask giving +80 holy spell damage
- no idea why, but I had to remove the libram line because it was not working with OpenOffice, but I saw you didn't include libram of divine purpose, I'm getting the best results with this one on the PTR.

Some idea:
- would be nice to be able to pick up different rank of concecration, for example you can spam rank 1 in any group, but you need a shadow priest to spam max rank
- Would also be nice to see the details between seal DPS, judgement DPS for each seals because for the moment it's here only for SoC and I have no idea how accurate is your SoR DPS evaluation...

About the ret paladin spot in raids, it's kinda hard to defend putting a ret pala in the melee group, simply because they don't scale as good as a warrior or a rogue with attack power group buffs and their main buff is raid based and independant of their damage...

Just look at the WWS of Blood Legion (top raid DPS recorded on WWS in a lot of fights) and look at Grant's buffs ... he's often put in the same group than locks or hunters, if he's lucky he gets a resto shamy ...

Example of what I state :
Grant - WWS

Gurtogg Bloodboil kill ranked 2nd on WWS. Check Grant's buffs list ... Not even battle shout or a leader of the pack ...

I know that in my guild, it's exactly the same. When we run 3 rogues, no way the ret pala will get a spot with them in the melee DPS group. When we run 2, well ... getting a druid or hunter in this group is usually preferred because they benefits from some of the group buffs and gives more group damage than a ret pala ... (either +3% group damage or +5% melee crit) ...

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by Djardin

I know that in my guild, it's exactly the same. When we run 3 rogues, no way the ret pala will get a spot with them in the melee DPS group. When we run 2, well ... getting a druid or hunter in this group is usually preferred because they benefits from some of the group buffs and gives more group damage than a ret pala ... (either +3% group damage or +5% melee crit) ...

Thats what happens all the time in pretty much everyguild. Thats the perception of WoW community about us. And its all up to Blizzard if they want to change that view. I have my hopes up that they are going to address the melee group viability in communitys eyes.

galzohar · 10/25/07, 9:43 PM

Interesting results, I suppose I underestimated the extra WF benefit due to the fact it only affects main hand while for the paladin it affects a 2h weapon.

Are there better ways to measure WF gains roughly?

Well I suppose an actual spreadsheet to calculate that and match the WWS logs would seal the deal regarding the paladin's spot in the melee group. Making sure the rogue and paladin are equally geared though would be quite difficult but not really impossible.

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Interesting results, I suppose I underestimated the extra WF benefit due to the fact it only affects main hand while for the paladin it affects a 2h weapon.

Well I suppose an actual spreadsheet to calculate that and match the WWS logs would seal the deal regarding the paladin's spot in the melee group. Making sure the rogue and paladin are equally geared though would be quite difficult but not really impossible.

For some reason I seem to score a lot more damage than Ed, so I did the same test comparing our rogues to my own WF procs. I know Ed havent gemmed hes gear properly, but still hes got T6 and I have only full T5 on the WWS log.

My own guilds WWS example

Paladin
Windfury Attack 16
11 * Melee Average 1468
5 * Melee Crit Average 3206 (30%)
Damage 32178

Rogue #1
Windfury Attack 30
21 * Melee Average 489
9 * Melee Crit Average 1092 (30%)
Damage 20097

Total difference: ~60%

Rogue #2
Windfury Attack 26
18 * Melee Average 379
8 * Melee Crit Average 766 (30%)
Damage 12950

Total difference: ~150%

Did I completely miss something obvious, or are those numbers really that much in favor of paladin? Im even personally confused of the numbers. Am I doing something wrong? We all were in combat same duration dealing damage. These were our top 2 rogues.

Bliss · 10/25/07, 10:41 PM

Well, part of that is you are counting the average melee damage for the rogues, where you actually want average mainhand damage. A fast offhand is lowering their average melee hit by a very large amount combined with 75% offhand damage.

EDIT: For an accurate mainhand damage you could backtrack from their average sinister strike, subtracting the base damage and added damage from talents. You would also have to add in glancing blows.

hrym · 10/26/07, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Here is the new Paladin dps spreadsheet version 1.8. Read the last few pages of the thread to see what has been added to it:-

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

every time when i click on "Show Detail", "Strength Gems" or "Correct Gems" i get the following error message & nothing happens:

"Laufzeitfehler '1004'

Die Methode 'Range' für das Objekt '_Global' ist fehlgeschlagen"

which means

"the method 'Range' for object '_Global' has failed"

when i press debug button after clicking "Show Detail" it marks the following line:

Public Sub Expand()

Dim CurCell As Object

    Range(Names("MyEnchants")).EntireRow.Hidden = False
    
    For Each CurCell In Range(Names("MyGems"))
        If CurCell.Offset(0, -1).Value = "m" Then

when i press the other two buttons it also allways fails at the specific Range command...

i'm using excel 2002 sp 3

Veritas17 · 10/26/07, 4:02 AM

Haste. How will haste benefit us overall? I'm more curious at that.

I have the swiftsteel shoulders and will get the swiftsteel bracers probably next week if im not getting anything for my shaman (the guilds only enhancement shaman).

You know, im really trying to figure out why i'm bothering gearing this guy up as much as I am knowing i'm never going to get into a raid as ret lol. With me being the only enhancement shaman I don't get windfury unless i'm there as him so... yeah. Why the hell am I doing this to myself?