That drops the damage for all ranks of Consecration by 83, lowering DPM of Rank 1, but leaving the marginal damage gain, mana cost, and DPM the same.
The marginal damage gain for casting a r6 Cons over a r1 Cons is 691.45 damage. The marginal increase in cost is 540 mana. Replacing r1 Cons with r6 Cons is effectively 1.28 DPM.
Their priority is pretty high, but just remember that as a buff stays on the mob longer, its priority decreases. So a judgement's priority will be a lot lower 5 minutes into a fight then in the first minute, making things like shadow priest dots and rogue poisons knock it off. We run into this problem on brutallus... the simple solution is to make rogues switch to instant poison, and make others switch off unecessary debuffs.
In my experience judgements regain their priority every time you hit CS to refresh them. I've never had judgements fall off as long as I'm there CSing them back into place.
As a rule of thumb (and to make life easier), when calculating consecration damage, add 26 DPS if JotC is on for any rank, since it's unaffected by multipliers or downranking.
26 DPS * 8 = 208 flat damage per cast (that's where my +208 damage comes from)
The 26 DPS number is achieved as Fiola mentioned: 0.95 * 219 (spelldamage from JotC) = 208.05 damage per cast or 26.00625 DPS
Zurm s right ! We are at brutallus as well and we put the 3 judgements in to the boss tho only the seal that I cast remains refreshed. the other 2 falls of after a period of time. So we can consider this a Bug, because it should refresh all the 3 judgemens so they cannot fall down from the incredible ammount of debuffs on the boss. i think the cap is 50 but thats not offical :P
Has anyone done testing on Judgement of Wisdom as far as its priority as a debuff? My guildies were concerned that if we were to be keeping up all these extra judgements that either they would get knocked off easily or something more important would in its place. I know it's been a lot better with debuffs since blizz increased the cap, but we are usually pretty warlock/spriest heavy which is the reason for concern.
I have not done any hard testing on this, but my first instinct leads me to think that it would hold a pretty high priority since it's technically getting re-applied every crusader strike. This is opposed to a dps class re-applying a dot every ~12-15 seconds. Does that logic hold true?
Don't quote me on this, but I believe using a pre-BC rank of SOW (rank 3) will allow it to use the pre-BC debuff priority system, preventing JOW from being knocked off, although you will obviously return less mana per proc (from 74 to 59).
I'm always conscious of multi function macros not being allowed. I'm in work at the moment so I can't try it out, but, can you make a macro that fires AW and a haste pot at the same time?
Is using haste pots during a Bloodlust as yummy as it looks or is there a catch I haven't noticed?
Don't think anyone said it's unreasonably stacked, it's slightly more stacked (+1 bm) over the normal ret, war, enhance, rogue, rogue, but not much. Unreasonably stacked is if you'd stick a feral on top of that or throw in more than 2 heroisms. Well done indeed
Thank you.
It was 2 rogues at first, although one had to leave early and the reshuffling of groups ended with a BM hunter in there. And i wouldn't say overstacked either. It's 2 bloodlusts compared to the 3 many others have, and we lacked an arms warrior for the 4% physical DPS, as well as there being at least one less LW in the group than usual. So by Brutallus standards the buffs were "average".
Yea, with SoB and optimization I don't think 2100 should be out of reach at all. If theory is correct, currently you should be able to hit +120dps of whatever I can given same gear and circumstances.
Originally Posted by Snoe
Reading stuff like that, I wonder who ever reported that issue. Or why a Blizzard employee tested it. It's so not relevant.
Surely it's more important they dedicate their time and effort towards something like that which no one uses (or should be shot if they do), vs. forming a 5 min meeting to discuss the no brainer issue of the horribly retarded faction seal imbalance and settling it.
Besides, I can only guess the remaining reason they haven't done so is so they have one more flashy "buy Woltk now with fixed seals" sticker as a selling point or some other lame marketing ploy. It's the carrot that needs to be dangled for people to run after (pre-tbc fear ward for priests? things that always should have been fixed from day 1, but they kept delaying for no reason).
Yea, with SoB and optimization I don't think 2100 should be out of reach at all. If theory is correct, currently you should be able to hit +120dps of whatever I can given same gear and circumstances.
120 is slightly more than what I would have put it on at the current gear level, but another SoB vs SoC thread is not really nessesary.
However, RNG considerations, fewer but larger hits with SoC gearing and another variable in the amount of SoC procs means that while on average the difference might be your 120 DPS, but the difference between absolute top scores of horde and alliance paladins will be smaller. Alliance paladins got a larger variance in their DPS than horde does and that will show in those absolute top scores when RNG decides to be in your favor.
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself. This is of course from a bit undergeared situation though, I can only push about 14-1450 dps on teron.
For those of you running Bruttallus, what does your threat situation look like? Would you be able to lose salvation with 2 or 3 mins left in the fight?
If you can get 3 mins of wisdom, thats an extra 1400 mana to play with.
180 seconds / 5 = 36 BoW tics
36 * 39 Mp5 = 1404 mana.
Reading stuff like that, I wonder who ever reported that issue. Or why a Blizzard employee tested it. It's so not relevant.
It's been noticed since when CS was first introduced. It's a "contradiction" fix. Using a damage seal reduces your damage output - Narf? It's something that obviously needs a fix, and it's a plus if no one uses SotC much - they can't accidentally unbalance the game by over-buffing SotC (unless they reintroduce the original SotC bug.... = D).
Different damage seals having different scaling is a little more complex to fix - especially since SoB is supposed to out-DPS SoC - that's the reason it has the health cost. If they're made more on par, then why use SoB? (BElf paladins getting official Naaru approval does open us up to trading faction seals, methinks . . .)
The point being that the SotC fix is low-hanging fruit. The change has low-impact and is "easily" done. (I'd think... it's 2 abilities)
As for using SotC + CS, I find myself doing that on raid trash when a mob is about to die and I know it'll be time to switch targets. (Doing SoC R1 swapping is a bit of a bother and can conflict with other ability cooldowns) I also used it for killing the imps in MrT last night, since they don't last long enough to be worth judging, and I have a tendency to pull aggro if I judge in the first 2 seconds of a fight. (Darn you, SJ!)
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself. This is of course from a bit undergeared situation though, I can only push about 14-1450 dps on teron.
For those of you running Bruttallus, what does your threat situation look like? Would you be able to lose salvation with 2 or 3 mins left in the fight?
If you can get 3 mins of wisdom, thats an extra 1400 mana to play with.
180 seconds / 5 = 36 BoW tics
36 * 39 Mp5 = 1404 mana.
I've had to stop my autoattack on Brutallus for fear of pulling aggro during the first 45 seconds. I'm not certain how removing salvation would affect my personal threat after those 45 seconds, but I'm not going to waste the time of 24 others to find out. My gear, however, is pretty good so I'm not missing or getting dodged much anymore. I think if I didn't have salvation across the full duration, I could pull aggro from the tanks at any point.
To get the maximum out of an AW you should ideally have a "use trinket" tied to it as well. For example, my current AW macro looks like so:
/cast Avenging Wrath
/use 14
It automatically uses both AW and my Bloodlust Brooch at the same time so I get the most out of both of them. Of course you can tie it to other things, such as pots and other spells as well.
EDIT: The "Use 14" means "use the trinket in the second slot". If you have an on use trinket in the first slot you want to use you would just type "/use 13" for the second line.
I know its been said before, so please don't flame me because I don't agree with the imbalance either, but...
If you look at the DPS done with SoB vs SoC at lower gear levels (namely T4 and below), SOC actually beats SoB quite easily. Maybe blizzard's internal argument for delaying/ignoring the issue is that its a simple balance issue that will be "fixed" come WotLK much like it was in BC?
Then again, ret doesn't even get good for raiding until around T5 level (at least, IMO), so I think thats a stupid reasoning to have personally. Seal of Wrath please! Solve the issue AND give ret pallies a DPS boost.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Really we don't need more discussion on this. Unless someone wants to supply new numbers as to the actual disparity at given gear levels, the only thing remaining is to list everyones stance on the issue - and that's hardly necessary, productive, or interesting.
I understand why the alliance consistently point out the imbalance in their otherwise contribution-worthy posts - I'd be annoyed too - and have been at random faction imbalances in the past, in both directions - but this issue has been discussed to death and certainly doesn't need any additional posts dedicated to it.
I've had to stop my autoattack on Brutallus for fear of pulling aggro during the first 45 seconds. I'm not certain how removing salvation would affect my personal threat after those 45 seconds, but I'm not going to waste the time of 24 others to find out. My gear, however, is pretty good so I'm not missing or getting dodged much anymore. I think if I didn't have salvation across the full duration, I could pull aggro from the tanks at any point.
I'm surprised you're that close to the line - that has to be terribly annoying - so are you having to stagger your cooldowns outside of Bloodlust (AW for example), or is the threat you're talking about totally maximizing your dps for bursts, and then slowing down when you get too high?
Hold down ctrl to get the dipis, don't hold down ctrl to be cheap. This works as long as the key combo you place the macro in isn't bound (e.g. if you're using the blizzard frames and put it on '6', make sure 'ctrl+6' isn't bound).
120 is slightly more than what I would have put it on at the current gear level, but another SoB vs SoC thread is not really nessesary.
I don't claim to have gotten to this number myself, but this is what RAWR spits out and it's been fairly accurate so far, but lets not digress as others said. Suffice it to say, there is a gap, it's not small and it's only getting more significant with future gear.
Originally Posted by Alborak
While we're on the topic of mana issues, for those of us stuck with a 3 pally raid and obviously sacrificing wisdom for salvation, would it be possible to swap your salv for a wisdom once a comfortable point has been reached where you're no longer at issue of pulling aggro? I know that for myself on fights like Teron or Mother, about 50% through the fight I am only around 60% of tank threat, and so drop my salvation for a wisdom on myself.
At that amount of DPS I don't think threat should be a problem.
I used to do those fights pre-threat reduction with BoS, so same threat gen and my DPS was similar to yours at the time (10 sec CS, wearing pre-resilience S2), if you don't do something stupid within the first 20 seconds you can do the fight without Salvation @ ~1450 dps. Salvation then switching to BoW should be very viable.
However I doubt you'll stay at that dps number for long especially at teron with gear upgrades at which point you really do need BoS, so it's not a practice I'm so sure I condone.
I can't get to a spreadsheet at work, but working it thru on paper and on another forum with others, I think this is the most efficient setup for an Engineer Human Retribution Paladin. It's at 98 hit rating, 105 expertise rating (including the racial), maximizes use of sockets with only 1 extra orange to get a +3 strength socket bonus, and concentrates on maximizing AP. How it differs from the set up linked 20-30 pages back is it doesn't incorporate the new rings, as haste doesn't scale as well for Alliance, and instead sticks with (what I'm assuming to be) the best BT/Hyjal rings. I also don't know the math on s4 gloves vs. Hard Khorium, but I'm erring on the side of the s4 glove bonus.
If someone would plug this into a spreadsheet and let me know what it spits out in comparison to some common alternate "ideal" sets, I'd love to see the results.
EDIT: Typo's on gemming, changed gems in shoulders and boots.
Last edited by Cathmor : 04/23/08 at 3:52 PM.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
-Cathmor of Malfurion
formerly Baelor of Runetotem
I'm surprised you're that close to the line - that has to be terribly annoying - so are you having to stagger your cooldowns outside of Bloodlust (AW for example), or is the threat you're talking about totally maximizing your dps for bursts, and then slowing down when you get too high?
I pretty much just go through my standard rotation. If I get a string of crits within the first 30 seconds, I jump up to about 104% threat and end up slamming my Escape key and just standing there until I feel safe enough to start again. I generally pop AW at 0:30 and then at 5:30 when we BL, but I've stopped using Haste Pots with the first AW.
The ring combo you listed is what I used up until 2.4, since then I've dropped the Eternal Champion for a crafted [Hard Khorium Band] and will drop the Unstoppable aggressor for [Band of Ruinous Delight].
Despite lower priority stats for alliance, these rings win through brute force itemlevel. They just have a lot of everything.
I'd say the engineering one is useful to use as an intermediate upgrade if you don't want to go leather as the Crown drops from Kil'jaden presumably, but doesn't hold it's own in the overall endgame set.
The ring combo you listed is what I used up until 2.4, since then I've dropped the Eternal Champion for a crafted [Hard Khorium Band] and will drop the Unstoppable aggressor for [Band of Ruinous Delight].
Despite lower priority stats for alliance, these rings win through brute force itemlevel. They just have a lot of everything.
I'd say the engineering one is useful to use as an intermediate upgrade if you don't want to go leather as the Crown drops from Kil'jaden presumably.
I couldn't get the Rawr application to start on my work computer, and haven't the knowledge to troubleshoot it. I'll try again.
Math'ing it out on my notepad here, I thought that the Aggressor's/Eternal Champion rings had a sizeable AP lead after raid buffs (in the Aggressor's case) and the Eternal proc were counted (all though I do not know the proc chance/up-time). The [Band of Ruinous Delight], on a second look, does seem like it would outperform either ring I listed. I'm not sold on the Hard Khorium - Aggressor's is 87.12 AP after Divine Strength and Kings, which is a 29 AP gap between it and the Hard Khorium ring. Does 28 haste rating truly outperform either the Eternal proc or 29 static AP, even for an Alliance paladin?
And the Mayhem vs Crown depresses me, makes me think I should have rolled LW for drums ages ago. Anyway, I'll go back and try to fix Rawr on this comp, see what the numbers actually say.
EDIT: A thought on Mayhem vs Crown - Dropping the goggles for the Crown loses a lot of hit, where would I gain it back? If the answer is gloves with the khorium battlefists, then all I did was reiterate the set that Theras linked 30 pages ago. Go me...
Last edited by Cathmor : 04/23/08 at 4:20 PM.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
-Cathmor of Malfurion
formerly Baelor of Runetotem
04/23/08, 4:07 AM
