1. Use Rawr.
2. ???
3. Profit!


While I agree that the above is true, I've had several ~5 min fights where I've had ~9ppm on SoC. Almost too consistent to be just luck, though of course it could be just that.

Curious if anyone else had the same experience, and unless it's just luck with the RNG, if there's something else behind it.

What is the better combo

[Assassin's Alchemist Stone] + Rank 6 Consecrate + Fel mana potions

[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] + Rank 4 Consecrate + Super mana potions

[Dragonspine Trophy] + Rank 1 Consecrate + Haste potions/mana potions



The most dps I have been able to do on Brutallus was 1320 (No group buffs) but I see you did near 2k Avitus which is amazing. On my 1320 pass I was using Darkmoon card and 2 haste pots during avenging wrath and 1 mana pot in between. After reading a few pages back I see that might not be the best idea.

I'm actually writing a review of trinket combos in conjunction with mana pots as we speak, just need to do a few more calculations to give a definite answer.

I've been RET for 3 weeks now... and thanks to firming up my cooldowns ( Thanks Avitus ) and slowly improving my gear ... Week 2 I did 1200 DPS on gorefiend ... Week 3 I did 1670 on Gorefiend ... the only difference was firming up my cooldowns. HUGE difference - practice, practice, practice

I really don't know what Haste means for RET pallies. My initial thought is that haste doesn't mean to much as Alliance pallies are Command ... on the other hand, Haste means a lot more if you are Horde and using Seal of Blood.

We are getting closer to making attempts on brutalis, maybe a few more weeks of farming Hijal / BT - but almost every mele class has dropped a profession to get leather working for the drums.

I to would like to know the value of haste for Alliance Ret pallies ( clearly horde benefit) but I have been using either Insane STR or Mana Pots or Fel Mana depending on the fight.

I believe that it was established earlier in the thread that Haste pots provide more DPS than Insane STR pots.

As for actual itemization value, keep in mind that for Alliance Paladins, Haste only affects autoattack DPS as opposed to armor penetration, which affects autoattack as well as Crusader Strike.

In comparison, Haste affects both autoattack and SOB DPS for a Blood Elf. It doesn't affect Crusader Strike, but autoattack+SOB tends to be a larger portion of a Ret's damage than autoattack+CS.

Thanks - RAWR is freakin amazing.

Nuff said.

So messing around a bit - I think running at 300+ haste rating and having a DST proc (As soon as it drops again, I'm getting my filthy hands on it finally) will = fun.

Thanks Avitus!

Is just luck... some fights my PPM is close to 5, others close to 9... but after months rading you realise is just luck, the average is very close to 7 and nothing changes that. I always have a shamy with wf on my group too.

First, you should tell your MT that the armor bonus of devo aura shouldn't be required; my guild's tanks are at or VERY near armor cap, and they have no need for a paladin in their group.

In terms of the DPS group, my guild will kick a feral druid out if we have 2 rogues online. The feral druid gets a lot less from an enhancement shaman than a ret pally, and the ret pally's group buff (2% dmg) is just as good as the feral druid's one (5% crit). It leads to more raid DPS in the end.

I have almost an identical experience to you. My ppm on SoC on extended fights tends to be nearly 8.5. I did see data on the WoW forums, several thousand parsed attacks, suggesting that haste does actually increase SoC ppm. If I can find that thread than I will post a link to it.

This week's Brut, 1989 DPS Wow Web Stats

Only 1 heroism this time (had 2 last time), normal group (ret, war, enh, rogue, rogue).

Was at 2050 up until 10% left, but messed up with a potion slightly ;S With a 2nd heroism it would easily have pushed into mid 2ks.





I think you'll find this exact question being asked and answered at least once every 2 pages of the 150 pages of this thread. Sorry but there's a limit to how often we'll answer this, please read the thread/use search.

We extensively use Drum rotations in our melee group giving it pretty much +80 melee haste all the time.

In addition I currently have 124 haste rating on gear, that totals to 204 haste rating. Add Heroism (which is very significant in short ~2 min fights of Hyjal for example), DST procs, Mongoose proc, we're talking a pretty high amount of haste here.


Been going through all my recent logs where the above conditions were true (drum rotations mainly) and they almost all have SoC ppm in the 8-9 range.

Of course, 2-6 min fights are way too short to be even remotely conclusive, but it's pretty odd that almost all of em have 8-9 ppm for SoC, so I'm wondering if there might be more to it.

It's certainly a pretty controversial issue that could use some clearing up/further testing, if anyone would be up to running some long tests while maintaining SoC up at 100%.

Maybe 4 paladins with Drums go through a stack of Drums of Battle (50 charges @ 2 mins = 1 hour 40 mins) each while keeping up a rotation, also we'd gain 4 sets of data for confirmation. (Possibly easiest to find such a team on a PTR realm with 4x leatherworking paladins?)


Oh and before anyone opens that can of worms: No, even if it turns out SoC scales with haste (gains ppm) it will still not be competitive to SoB. According to calculations through the spreadsheet, SoC will still be short by about 110 DPS in end Sunwell gear (rather than 170 DPS if Haste doesn't scale with SoC as is currently assumed). It would be a buff, but nothing earth shattering to change our current situation.

---

If [Torch of the Damned] would *ever* have dropped for us, I would be leatherworking already, I've got the mats to go 0-375 in the bank currently. Unfortunately, I'm still using Lionheart Executioner, and as a result tied to keeping Blacksmithing for the time being. As soon as I get my [Vengeful Gladiator's Greatsword], I'll likely drop Swordsmithing for Leatherworking, unless Blizz can show me something is on the horizon to upgrade/update the usefulness of the profession.

My other profession is Jewelcrafting, and given that it is *slightly* useful as well as a money minting profession, I'm more inclined to drop Blacksmithing.

In regards to your situation, I'd drop Herbalism for Leatherworking asap. I look at it this way; one can always level another alt to be your herb gatherer. If you can pick up a profession that will increase your personal DPS as well as your raid's DPS, do it.

For anyone wondering about lack of updates, I'll resume work on Rawr this week onwards. Had been busy with work and had to spend my spare time managing guild issues - Council kill on March 2, Illidan kill on April 26 so you can imagine the hell I had to go through

We do use a Warrior tank, who is *very* good I might add. However, for many fights we use two feral druid tanks. If you would like to armory them (I can't guarantee their PVE gear will be on), here are the people to look up:

Slymeran - Warrior
Limarah - Druid
Deep - Druid

All of them are in <Disbanded> on Ner'zhul. I would link directly but I'm at work.

But on most of the fights where the tank REALLY gets pummel, like Brutallus, we simply use two feral druids. Feral druids take FAR less damage than a warrior would on those fights... and the other fights Slymeran tanks on, armor isn't that big of an issue. Plus, he usually uses potions to increase armor, so he gets so close than an extra 0.5% DR wouldn't be worth it.

If you have 3 rogues in the raid, it's better to put the third into the DPS hroup and you in a tank group. Even without windfury I was pulling out 1200+ DPS.

No they don't, it's about equal and in many cases the warrior will take less damage. (talking about Brutallus).

Was looking at your WWS, and found something interesting:

total white hits: 151
WF hits: 34

Non-WF white hits: 117 -> expected 23.4 WF procs
Soc Procs: 57 -> if SoC can proc WF -> expect 11.4 WF procs

If SoC procs WF, then expected proc rate is 34.8, very close to the number you actually got. Interesting question now - if SoC can proc WF, is that any different scaling-wise than WF proccing SoB?



Also, if WF does not proc SoC, then only 117 white hits had potential to proc SoC, so you had a proc rate of 57/117 = 0.487
Expected proc rate of a 3.8 AS weapon is 0.443


You'd need a lot more WWS parses to prove those two claims true, but I'm very sure of the premise that WF does not proc SoC (no double SoC procs observed).


Do we have any more SoC WWS reports? (sorry, I'm horrid at searching for these things)

1) We run with 1-2 rogues. And even if we ran with 3, the DPS gain a ret paladin gets (at least, a Blood Elf) from being in a melee group is greater than the bonus a rogue gets... hence an increase in raid DPS. While a rogue may put out more total damage, the increase is lower, especially with poisons and the new weapon oil taken into account.

2) Yes, they REALLY do. Feel free to browse the WWS reports in my comment on brutallus, then tell me that statement with a straight face again. Look specifically at the max damage per hit taken (meaning the spike damage versus the overall fight damage). Our warrior was taking 16k hits, and our feral druid never took more than 12k. You'd have to look at the older ones, again because we don't use a warrior to tank it anymore. We just make our warrior respec MS to give us Blood Frenzy now.

Its not a question of whether SoC procs WF. It can't. Yellow attacks can not proc Windfury after the nerf a few patches ago (mostly to break the Hamstring spamming WF proc thing). SoC is a yellow attack. The numbers must have just been a really lucky night with RNG.

I feel your pain on the Torch issue, but I'm secretly hoping for a Felspine. Just downed twins so I might see an Apolyon before I ever touch a torch.

I already dropped herbing for LW. The haste is nice, but it would be even nicer if I was rocking SOB. I think that its an extra reason to get into the good melee group. Most the time I'm in the tank group with Resto melee totems and LotP. My Sham is now an herber.

Why do you think JC is an anchor? I think the JC neck shows up frequently in my dream gear sets, but I already have an Ele Sham who is JC so it seems redundant.

Small thing to point out. After playing around on the PTR, I noticed that the proc from Shard of Contempt has been changed from the name Heroism to Disdain. This should fix the WWS reports for alliance from being confused with multiple buffs with the same name.

This isn't a big change, but I hadn't seen it listed anywhere.

JC neck is BOP... only the JC who gets the pattern can use it.