Correct. I'm just saying I'm not going to drop JC on the sham to pick it up on the Paladin. DPS wise it would be a good idea but I love engineering too much.

Ah, yes. I was thinking of droping mining and getting engineering for the helm. While the helm off kiljaeden is tempting, I can't afford to loose that much hit, and the new Engineering goggles seem like an appropriate replacement, seeing as how I'd have to pass at least 8 leather helms before I saw one.

I agree Zurm.

[Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]
[Demontooth Shoulderpads]
[Duplicitous Guise]
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow]

Yar, it sucks being at the bottom of the leather food chain.

Forgot about the amazing chestpeice. I'm disappointed with the droprates on these patterns. We have been in Sunwell since day 2 of 2.4 and we have gotten one, the BS chest if Im not mistaken.

Odly, most of the leather gear is NOT endgame for me, since it has no haste (*gently pats alliance*). There are a few pieces though, namely the LW chest and [Duplicitous Guise] that we share as endgame.

Am I reading the WWS wrong? WF attacks are treated as white hits under WWS, correct?


If I'm not reading the WWS wrong, that's 151 total attacks with 34 WF attacks. That means 117 "normal" attacks proc'd WF.


If you're right and SoC can't proc WF, then 117 normal attacks proc'd 34 WF attacks -> effective proc rate of 29%. WF should have a 20% proc rate, so then that would mean Avitus got extremely lucky on that fight. What are the effective proc rates of other SoC using paladins? SoB paladins?



EDIT: Digging through past pages for other WWS reports, here's another one
Obbee - WWS
68 total swings, 13 WF procs, 30 SoC procs, Torch of the Damned (3.8 base AS)
13 / 55 = 23% WF proc rate
30 / 55 = 54.5% SoC proc rate if WF can't proc SoC.
30 / 68 = 44.1% SoC proc rate if WF could proc SoC.

less hits in this parse, but it implies something different. I'd just like to compare more WWS reports (preferably with "correct DPS rotations") and see if there's a definite pattern that suggests how the SoC + WF mechanics are interacting. (Forget how they're "supposed to work", I want to see if they're actually working that way)

The new 2.4.2 ptr patch has this following addition for Paladins:

"Seal of Crusader now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40% while active."

Now, SoCr increases attack speed by 40% as well. A bit of actual damage is lost because of the seal, but look at the following info:

My current dps gear gives me a attack speed of 3.30 with my current weapon (Blade of Harbingers). If a co-ordinated Blood Lust in melee occurs, (during this new patch, mind you), I could blow Avenging Wrath, activate Seal of Crusader, and hold a attack speed of 1.81 for up to 40, secs (Blood Lust Duration), with the extra 30% damage to all attacks and 40% damage to Crusader Strike. That means that it would hit non-crit for around 3640-ish every 6 secs (Critting for around 7500), while my normal attacks hit for around 1400-1500 non-crit every 1.81 secs. Even after Avenging Wrath Fades, I would still be hitting with 2800 ish Crusader Strikes and with 1100-1200 normals at 1.81 attack speed until Blood Lust ended, where you would return to Seal of Blood attacks.

Anyone thinks its worth trying this method out at all? I'm poking for opinions here.

So here i was wondering.

Seeing as more and more of us alliance paladins are popping fel mana potions, how much better (if at all) is the DMC:Crusade still, compared to some other trinkets? The spelldamage benefit is gradually dropping with each pot that you pop. On brutallus i'm popping so much that i get 3 debuffs reducing my spelldmg by 75 almost rendering the effect from the card useless.

Fiola, I think there is some confusion from your posts. First you're talking about SoC proccing Windfury, then you are talking about the opposite, Windfury proccing SoC.

Simply put:
Windfury attacks can proc SoC if the normal swing didn't. The extra PPM for Seal of Command are from Windfury giving the do over rolls from a non-proc normal swing.

This should easily put it in the range of 8-9 PPM.

I'm just pointing out what the data suggests. I don't think I've proven anything conclusively, and the 2nd data parse is based off of a short fight.

The forums ate my first reply, so I'm not gonna type out everything again. Here's some more data.


Horde SoB: (as a baseline)
Ashoram - WWS - 2000 DPS
112 swings, 19 WF procs (20.4%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1799 DPS
127 swings, 22 WF procs (20.9%)

Celina - WWS - 1307 DPS
122 swings, 23 WF procs (23.2%)

Kózu - WWS - 1699 DPS
119 swings, 19 WF procs (19%)

Fiorina - WWS - 1680 DPS
115 swings, 22 WF procs (23.7%)


Alliance SoC:
Calzone - WWS - 1597 DPS
114 swings, 24 SoC procs (21%/25%), 20 WF procs (21%/16.9%)

Tekzor - WWS - 1546 DPS
115 swings, 30 SoC procs (26%/31%), 19 WF procs (19.8%/15%)

Calzone - WWS -1780 DPS
122 swings, 33 SoC procs (27%/35%), 28 WF procs (29.8%/22%)

Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

Const - WWS - 1663 DPS
114 swings, 40 SoC procs (35%/47%), 29 WF procs (34%/23%)


Swings is calculated by adding the hit/crit on the WWS reports. AFAIK, they include WF attacks, so need to take that into account for calculating WF proc rates. For Alliance numbers, the left % assumes SoC procs off WF and WF does not proc off SoC; right % assumes SoC does not proc off WF and WF procs off SoC.

Alliance proc rates are all over the place (I just searched for Brut WWS and went down the list), but lower proc rates can be explained by SoC/WF not getting refreshed. Higher proc rates on multiple fights are harder to explain.

I want to get back to this a bit... I saw the post from Zurm immediately following:

The math on the last few pages adds up factors involving *current* game mechanics. From what I'm reading in other places, the Seal of Crusader boost to Crusader Strike does not diminish over time, however, the AP gains & overall damage do apparently.

Given the increased attack speed & Crusader Strike damage boost, at first blush, this buff strikes me as an increase to our overall PvE damage as Alliance Pallies if we were to use Seal of Crusader. The increased attack speed would stack with any haste pre-existing on our gear, as well as give us a greater chance to score Windfury Procs.

Now, I'm not a mathcrafting genius, but maybe Flyingtoaster or someone else who has done some testing on the PTR and who really understands the math could give the rest of us some input on this? It could *radically* alter the way a Ret Pally is played and geared if Seal of the Crusader is now the best DPS seal for Ret Pallies in PvE.

There is a very simple solution to the larger numbers of Windfury procs.

Random numbers are random.

This is just another case of wanting to see a pattern where there is none. Windfury can not proc off yellow attacks. It was patched that way a long time ago, it is a given fact. If by some odd reason it is broken you can rest assured that it will be fixed rapidly. There is a reason no one uses Hamstring in PvE anymore.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that WF increases the PPM of SoC, which should be looked into.

From what I've seen after a couple minutes on the PTR the 40% damage increase, just as Fiola said a few pages ago, only balances out the decrease from the SotC weapon damage effect. In reality, the basic difference between SotC and without is just the 474 attack power.

What does that mean? Well, with a 3.5 speed weapon you're looking at a (unbuffed) 118.5 damage increase on white swings and 122.9 damage increase on CS. Between the two that is (again with a 3.5 speed weapon) roughly a 54 DPS increase.

By contrast, with JoC alone hitting for roughly 550 (with crits) is roughly 61 DPS.

In reality, this changes very little for raiding.

On all the SoC parses, including WF reduces the proc chance per hit below the expected value. "WF proccing SoC" does not make better sense of the numbers.


On the other hand, if SoC is causing more WF procs, then the high end Alliance parses make more sense - SoC proc chance goes to normal AND WF proc chance becomes normal. Taking your interpretation, we have to assume that both SoC proc chance and WF proc chance are off.


One last note is that none of the SoB parses have as huge a variance. The highest WF proc % I could see for a SoB parse was 26% (lost it in the first post).

Yes, we do assume that 5 minutes is not a large enough sample space (its not). Again, it was patched so that Windfury can not proc off yellows. It is not a "common sense" thing, it is programmed that way.

If you really want to test this out turn on a bot, grab a shaman, and head down to Blasted Lands for 12 hours. Its possible its bugged, but then it is a bug and I'm sure it will be fixed rapidly.

Less scientific test run than last time, but on the PTR, I was swinging for 1k~1.2k without SotC. With SotC, It capped around 1.4k or so.


It's *highly* unlikely that they put in two patch notes to describe a fix and a buff. Why not just make one note to describe the change?

"SotC damage bonus has been greatly increased"

494 AP is 35.28 DPS, or another 123.5 weapon damage with a 3.50 speed weapon, or 142.64 Crusader Strike damage (also accounting for your gloves). It's a stretch, although I suppose that could account for the 200 damage difference.

It's just as unlikely that they'd put in two patch to describe the same fix. Giving CS a 40% damage bonus while SOTC is up to earn back the autoattack damage reduction and saying CS now properly gets the bonus damage from SOTC is pretty much the same thing.

I noted it wasn't scientific. But factor in 1.05 glove bonus, 1.06 2h Weapon Spec, Vengeance (can't stop critting on low level mobs, and I didn't feel like clicking it off every time), and that the natural damage range of my weapon [The Blade of Harbingers] is 190.


If there was anything like +40% damage, you should be seeing 1.6+k CS hits. But we don't see that. If you want to see a low damage range test, I did that already. Check back a few pages, and you'll note that there is no "extra unexpected damage" on CS + SotC.


Last thing: SotC AND CS were changed. They probably put in a patch note for each change to an ability. That's an alternate explanation for redundant patch notes that makes just as much sense.


So to recap again what we know:
1.) Both the bugfix and the "buff" are describing the same type of change. (the buff says +40% damage. +40% damage is precisely what you'd need to do to fix the bug)
2.) SotC is already changed on the PTR, and it's only bugfixed, not hugely buffed.
3.) Assuming that they really mean to buff SotC to deal 40% EXTRA damage with CS, it needs much more than that to be a "viable" raid DPS seal. (needs a damage judgement, much more scaling with gear, etc)

Wouldn't a bot get you banned? Even if you're not gaining anything, you're still using a bot.

(Or would the PTR be a gray area?).


There's so many things I'd love to number crunch and could easily (just run a 2nd PC on the PTR for 24 hours with a bot), but haven't done so in fear of going against the TOS.

My one post on this subject, since it's a rather large derail:

Personally, I use Autohotkey to automate a lot of tasks around the computer and the office.

I imagine it would be rather simple to rig up more complicated scripts if your testing requires an involved set of actions, but the only thing I used it for in WoW is to hit my Seal of the Crusader button every 25 seconds when I was leveling up weapon skills.

I imagine testing SoC/WF interactions in this case would indeed involve hitting the SoC button every 25-30 seconds for the Paladin and the Windfury Totem button every 2 minutes for the Shaman.

I make no promises about the legality of my methods, though. My only testimony is that I'm still playing up to now after leaving my Paladin autoattacking for a roughly 5 hours with the button pressing script running.

I had a question on expertise and dps:

I currently have none because I am using an axe and do not have a Shard of Contempt, so would it be better to replace my Pendant of the Perilous / Shattered Sun neckpiece with the Brooch of Deftness from badges, or is the ap/crit from the previous neckpieces better no matter what?

My initial thought would be the extra expertise from the necklace would not outweigh the SSO exalted Necklace. However I would suggest using rawr or the spreadsheet to find out for sure.

Actually, it's more specific than that; it's an artifact of the old-style "Reckoning". Basically, Seal of Command can only occur once per combat round, but every single white attack made during that duration is allowed to roll for a Command attack until one actually succeeds.

Old style reckoning could proc a command swing from any of the five attacks, but it would only fire once from the sequence. But with a full four swings stored, 5 attacks at once had a VERY high chance of proccing Command, so it was an almost-reliable six attacks, instantly.

Wouldn't a small (1s) internal cooldown do just that?