Haste is less desireable then previously since they balanced it.

Personally i have my Torch, and will prolly not bother with anymore haste items. The only other piece i'd consider would be the mail bracers, but going from Furious Shackles i'd gain/loose:

-17ap
-10 crit rating
-16 stam
+27 haste
+16 int

Dunno if that's rly viable. I'm a tad to lazy to get the spreadsheet working and do the proper math.

I'd go the other way, and consider getting rid of Prot talent points as soon as I have enough +hit on my gear. Getting 3% hit is just too expensive for 8 points (though I guess me being a SoB/JoB user influences that).

Valerys: I did think about that myself too. Considering we're getting 3 hit point in the new ret talent, is Precision still worth it 8 points? Not so sure about it...

About Executionner: WWS doesn't seem to like my french version of the game. After losing about 15mns to find out why my pal with savagery had more AP then the one with Exec, I've decided that it was time to grab some sleep and to try it later. So if anyone got a way to use french combat logs, please let me know. Otherwise, I'll get an english version of the PTR for the we.

Sanctified seals: Increase melee and spell hit by 3% + indispellable sceals... I'm gonna check again, you're making me doubt :o
Edit: Nvm, it's 3 crit, my bad.

Hmm, which ret talent is that?

Regardless, at a certain point with BT/Hyjal plate gear you will get more than enough +hit to hit the cap without Precision. And there's always Surefooted/+hit gems if you really need to.

The 3% spell hit from Precision will still help your JoComm, though. Unless you completely ignore your JoComm damage, you'll probably want that talent still to help you land your Judgments.

If I can get hitcapped without Precision, it opens up the door to better PVP talents, which means better arena gear like S3 gloves sooner rather than later. And I'm all for that.

I absolutely agree. I wasn't trying to suggest a PVP ret build, but rather that some of the best PVE ret gear we can get (or at least get easier than in some raids) is arena gear. The upcoming S3 gloves come to mind.

Since freeing those 8 points doesn't really up your DPS, I wouldn't rush into capping hit without precision, and replace hit gear with whatever whenever it would increase DPS, even if it means trading a lot of hit rating for very little str/crit. Of course I'm not sure if such tradeoffs are even possible at every gear level but they should definitely be done when it is possible, rather than getting more hit and freeing those points that have no other use anyway.

I agree about the S3 gloves. An additional 5% damage on Crusader Strike over time will add up. However In the same breathe I can also say that I would be hard pressed to stop using Pillager's Gauntlets for S3. Now baring in mind that not everyone has BT or Hyjal gear available to them season 3 gloves will probably be the best upgrade available for quite a few ret paladins.

I actually expect the s3 gloves will math out to be superior to silent justice or the pillager's gloves.

My original plan was to use t6 gloves and shoulders to get the 2pc, now I need to pick another slot for the 2pc.

We should probably make a new thread for ret itemizing and leave this one for DPS skill cycle/useage discussion. If anyone wants to start a new thread discussing the best bang for your buck in each armor slot, I'm glad to troll that one too.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but what are you asking here? What should scale better than STR?

AFAIK the concensus of haste only being good when stacked is totally wrong. If anything, the first points of haste give the biggest benefit, just like the first %s of crit do. Of course adding 2% crit doesn't really change (noticeably) the value of extra crit, and same goes for haste.
I don't see any reason why haste would only be a good stat if you have a certain amount - either it's good or it isn't.

The only situation I can see where haste is only good after a certain amount is if the haste makes you use a different rotation that doesn't work without it, like the 1.5s (or close to it) cast time on holy light making flash of light not needed, but if you don't have enough haste you still use flash of light in which case haste is wasted. But of course this will not be valid in 2.3 anyway so it's back to "if haste is good, there is no reason for it to be any better when you stack it".

The argument is whether haste is good for an alliance paladin. As it is right now alliance and horde pallys have two completely different systems of doing damage, and the horde version favors haste as a primary stat whereas the alliance one put it into the "nice to have but not great" pile.

As for "only getting a few points of haste", you sadly do need to stack it in order to see noticeable results. A 2% haste on your typical 3.8 speed weapon only decreases your swing time by .62 seconds. You need much larger amounts of haste to really make an large impact on your DPS.

Oh, and ret pallys don't use spell haste.

So basically what I mean I guess is, that let's say you could get as much haste as to double your attack speed... which you probably cant, but for the sake of an example.

Wouldnt that make your str scale way high with Seal like SoB? Or would it just be too expencive on the item budjet, since haste doesnt scale with Crusader strike at all? :o

So after reaching certain ammount of haste and holding it there, it would increase strengths potential?

I was refering to that. But then again maybe "it" refered to str? Anyway I've seen more than once people say haste is only good if you stack it, which I think is conceptually wrong.

Regarding how good it is, gogo spreadsheets?


As for stats scaling differently as your stats change: While increasing, for example, haste, will increase the DPS increase of STR and vice-versa, you'll need a huge change in a stat to really change how well the other stat scales. There are very few examples I've seen in the theorycraft threads on these forums where 1 stat actually becomes better than another per item-budget point after you change your stats (to something achieveable, if haste becomes better once you have 5000 str, for example, you can say it's never better).

The quantity of the DPS per haste (or crit) doesn't change when you add more, but the relative DPS increase does.
There are really 2 ways to look at it:
1. Getting more haste makes other stats better for quantitive DPS increase but keeps haste the same.
2. Getting more haste reduces the relative effect of additional haste but keeps the relative effect of other stats the same.
Both ways are 100% correct.

Hey again! Finally got an english version. However, atm, I'm not quite sure that my modus operandi for testing really is good. I was thinking about making a LOT of series of 5mn of bashing those blasted lands mobs with each enchant, and to see what I could get out of it... But then it stroke me: If instant attacks increase proc chance, testing with only flat white attack dmg might put savagery on the upper hand...

Sooo.. is it proved, definitly sure, that instant attacks do not increase proc chance? And that SoC and/or SoR won't do that as well?

I've seen different answers regarding this, but nothing that would let me think it was for granted.

The theoretical answer to this question is yes there will be a minimum haste rating (based on AP) which a person should have in order to maximise there dps output.

To go into slight detail. For both Crit and haste as examples, since an increase in these stats increases the value of strength there will be a time when increasing the crit/haste value by 1 itemisation point is of greater worth than increasing the the strength stat. As strength gets higher the optimal value of crit/haste will increase.

Such an effect can be modeled, and a graph of AP to minimal Crit/Haste rating can be plotted. This is something i have done (though not included in the published model).

On the crit side of things, assuming things like vengeance were always up regardless of crit, then it would show that there is no benefit (dps wise) of raising crit above 0 until your buffed AP is in the 2000-2500 mark. With haste, it shows that haste is not worth increasing past 0 until the AP is in the region of 5000-5500. From that point on there is an ever increasing amount of haste that one should have to optimise dps.

So yes, to re-answer your question, yes there is a level of haste rating that one should have in order to optimise dps, however until AP is past the 5k mark, this level sits at 0.

My spreadsheet already shows this :p

There seems to be a mixture of issues here.

SoC is based off the hasted weapon speed and thus haste decreased proc chance and leaves PPM the same. Instants can not proc SoC.

Enchants like mongoose have a proc based off the hasted weapon speeds, thus haste reduced proc chance and thus leaves ppm the same (based on white attacks). However since instants can proc the enchants, the ppm when using white + instants will be greater than using white alone.

If you want to bash on a mob for half an hour with different enchants using white attacks to gett the base PPM it would be useful (unless someone can tell me exactly what they are for each weapon)

Alright, Cheers Bellator...

Eventhough you didint give me any math on the matter, I understood your point and it does seem logical.

I guess my best move would be to slap my Red Belt of Battle back on and try to get the Gloves that drop from Akama, with 2 sockets (the name slips my mind) and replace my pillager gloves along with my band of Devastation... Since I dont think I'd reach 5k AP anytime soon :>

According to your Spreadseet, I'd run with 4k AP with raid buffs, guess I'm still some 1k off, meh! :P

Brute strength prevails yet again! Go STR!

Damn.
The point was: won't savagery be advantaged against proc-based enchants if I don't use CS every second. If what you're saying there is true well, I think I have to spam CS to compare those enchant properly.

And what I was saying regarding SoC / SoR was: Can they make proc-based enchants proc?