Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 151

Anarkii · 02/16/08, 2:14 AM

Blade of Harbingers is better than Torch/Cataclysm for Blood Elves, which is...interesting.

Deimosfobos · 02/16/08, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rasputin

While this isn't quite the issue for me personally, I agree that it is a problem. But just to make sure, is Apolyon at least an upgrade to Torch for Alliance?

Sure it is an upgrade, but by "brute force" alone, the item level is so high, that even with crapy stat choice is the best weapon in the game for alliance pallys too... the diference is that is a LOT better for BE pallys.

Hope devs fix this Horde>>>>Alliance problem regarding ret pallys.

Theras · 02/16/08, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos

Sure it is an upgrade, but by "brute force" alone, the item level is so high, that even with crapy stat choice is the best weapon in the game for alliance pallys too... the diference is that is a LOT better for BE pallys.

Just to make things a little more crystal clear, Apolyon is roughly a 25 DPS upgrade over a [Torch of the Damned] with Seal of Command, and a 53 DPS upgrade with Seal of Blood.

Deimosfobos · 02/16/08, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Theras

Just to make things a little more crystal clear, Apolyon is roughly a 25 DPS upgrade over a [Torch of the Damned] with Seal of Command, and a 53 DPS upgrade with Seal of Blood.

Exactly... thats a HUGE diference. And we are taking just about a weapon...

bellator · 02/16/08, 9:02 AM

For those wnting to see the effects of changin the way SoC works of hasted hit, go into the "DPS Calc" Tab and change formula in C17 to read:-

=7/(60/C4)

Deimosfobos · 02/16/08, 9:46 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

For those wnting to see the effects of changin the way SoC works of hasted hit, go into the "DPS Calc" Tab and change formula in C17 to read:-

=7/(60/C4)

Your DPS Spreadsheet is great, and very helpfull. I used to do the math manually, it saves a lot of time.

1 thing you could fix, when adding a new item, once you select a gem, you can't delete it, you get only 3 options (R, Y, B), none for deleting the gem from the item. Not a big thing, but a little annoying.

bellator · 02/16/08, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos

Your DPS Spreadsheet is great, and very helpfull. I used to do the math manually, it saves a lot of time.

1 thing you could fix, when adding a new item, once you select a gem, you can't delete it, you get only 3 options (R, Y, B), none for deleting the gem from the item. Not a big thing, but a little annoying.

Click on the cell with the gem in and press delete. Will remove it. Will add a clear in a later feature

• frmorrison · 02/16/08, 11:30 AM

For Alliance Pallies that lament that Red Belt of Battle is best in-slot, in 2.4 you can buy Vortex with badges and gold.

That new Axe is really good for BEs (2nd best in-game).

Shalymar · 02/16/08, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

For Alliance Pallies that lament that Red Belt of Battle is best in-slot, in 2.4 you can buy Vortex with badges and gold.

That new Axe is really good for BEs (2nd best in-game).

I plugged that new axe [The Blade of Harbingers], I am assuming from Badge of Justice, into the spreadsheet, it seems like the best weapon for a Ret Blood Elf paladin in the game.

• frmorrison · 02/16/08, 11:52 AM

Don't forget the 156 dps weapon called Apolyon

. Although many will not see for a while, it is in-game.

Shalymar · 02/16/08, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Don't forget the 156 dps weapon called Apolyon

. Although many will not see for a while, it is in-game.

Yeah, I don't foresee many Ret Paladins getting that sword anytime soon, however, if this Axe can be obtained via Badges, even if it is 200+ I see many Paladins running around with it even though it seems more like a Hunter's axe then a Ret Paladin weapon. You are correct though, that sword is very nice also.

orkyben · 02/16/08, 1:56 PM

I must say, I would be horribly surprised if this "BT quality badge loot" is actually a reference to [Badge of Justice].

I think it will be most probably some sort of "Sunwell" related badge, I hardly see how putting 134 DPS weapons in the game that you can earn by doing Heroic Slave Pens every day would benefit in the game in the slightest.

flyingtoastr · 02/16/08, 1:59 PM

Sunwell bosses drop good old [Badge of Justice]s. So yes, you can now get ilevel 141s for running heroic mech 50 times in a row.

Its all just prepping for the gear reset when WotLK hits. Its a lot like how easy they made high level PvP gear to get in patches 1.12 and 2.0.

• frmorrison · 02/16/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by orkyben

I hardly see how putting 134 DPS weapons in the game that you can earn by doing Heroic Slave Pens every day would benefit in the game in the slightest.

While this matter is outside the realm of this thread, the expansion will have a gear reset, so allowing people some fine leveling gear seems like a good idea, especially with upcoming MMOs that may be competitive with WoW.

Another thing it will take servers 1-2 months before they get to the badges vendor, and note this content is subject to change, it isn't live just yet.

Also, some class changes may happen in the future to make melee haste good for Alliance too, so they can have the 2nd best weapon in the game from badges as well.

Avitus · 02/16/08, 9:07 PM

Ah damn, I had stopped reading in disgust at the massive added imbalance the new gear is introducing (Haste gear taking the whole "SoB vs SoC" issue to a whole new level of imbalanced unfairness), but I didn't expect 10 new pages so fast!

People sure have been busy, anyway skimming through the Jerry Springer-style drama with that rogue and what not, some comments that have accumulated:

Originally Posted by Dyermaker

Secondly, Abominations hurt, sharing aggro during these pulls must be done. It is something that requires all of the tanks to learn together. However, once they learn to work together, these things are not an issue.

Not really a ret issue, but you can solo tank all abominations with prot spec and good enough gear. At ~24k hp buffed and good healers it's a non issue.

Ret spec in prot gear you have to hold back a bit with the AoE tanking however.

Originally Posted by Fiola

I believe they're playing it safe.

For 2.3:
"Okay, we're going to boost Ret paladin DPS a bit so that raids will see more of a benefit of having 1, but let's not over-do it, or we might make them too desirable"

<insert widespread paladin protest on lack of threat reduction>

"Okay, judging by community feedback, they won't be happy with 2.3 if it doesn't have threat reduction. One more buff for this patch"

I see the same strategy going on with the Spell damage -> Str thing. They're making small incremental changes (S3 change in 2.3, CS change in 2.3.3, small changes on 2.4 PTR), and ignore the negative side effects because the community generally doesn't care. On the upside, this might mean they have more time to redesign thoroughly.

Emphasis mine.

Your post just further proves my point. It took "community feedback" to get the threat reduction change implemented, without it they "might" have not added it.

Which is why I believe we're in a similar situation atm with the horde vs alliance/SoB vs SoC haste gear imbalance. And as much as I dread to be promoting such a thing, I think blizz forum whining might actually be required to make a change.

-SoB/SoV have to be given to the other factions

or

-SoC mechanics have to be changed to benefit more from the new haste itemization and be a true upgrade over SoB (as it should be, since it's a non-trainer seal).

Originally Posted by Zurm

I'm a blood elf. Seal of Blood is more DPS than Seal of Command, so you shouldn't feel bad at all.

While this is true in most cases, I believe (at least until 2.4 hits) with the added spelldamage in T6 gear, if you can maintain a max rank consecration/exorcism rotation on Teron (and yes you can), this evens or even turns the favor the other side

I can personally confirm 1950 DPS on a Teron Fight (making video when I manage to get 2k) in a group with enhance shammy + MS warrior + 2 rogues.

Originally Posted by m0wglie

1) Regarding the worth of Retribution paladins in 10-man
There's been a lot of discussion that I've seen regarding retribution paladins in 25-man raids. Common wisdom is that the extra blessing, the judgements, JotC and Sanc Aura in a Rogue/Rogue/Ret/Enh/Feral group increase raid DPS.

However, we're wanting to do some experimentation with a Ret Paladin in our melee group (setup would be Prot warrior, Feral Druid, Combat Rogue, Enh Shaman, Ret Paladin) since we usually end up with either a spare caster or our holy paladin in there.

Would you expect the synergy of Feral/Combat/Enhancement/Ret (plus the synergy of JotC with Imp SB, and the extra JoW uptime) to justify the inclusion of a Ret Paladin over a "pure" DPSer? (We would be replacing either an Arcane Mage, or a Moonkin, but we also have the option of a 2nd rogue, a hunter, or an arms warrior)

As a matter of fact, in our timed runs I usually end up between 1-2 on the overall DPS for the run. Just make very good use of Consecration on the multitude of trash pulls that come with tons of adds and spam pots throughout.

Make sure the holy paladin places JoW on the bosses.

Originally Posted by Zurm

Yes, it takes into account all of your current stats. Hit is an important stat, but shouldn't be overvalued. For example, i current raid with 75 hit, simply because wearing the [Ring of a Thousand Marks] to get capped does not make up for the DPS lost by wearing [Signet of Primal Wrath].

Might I offer some [Spicy Hot Talbuk] instead of Str food? It would land you exactly at the cap

Until capped, Hit is the most valuable stat there is, so going 20 Hit over 20 Str is definitely a good trade off.

Originally Posted by Buliwyf

looking to get hold of the latest spreadsheet. anyone got a link? i tried the one a few pages back but it seems dead

The link never changes: jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Also on the first page.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

While this isn't quite the issue for me personally, I agree that it is a problem. But just to make sure, is Apolyon at least an upgrade to Torch for Alliance?

It's an upgrade, but not an optimal one. As someone perfectly put it: An upgrade by "brute force itemvalue".

On the other hand, I have to wonder:

The actual stats are 416-625 frontload (average 520) @ 3.5 speed = 148.7 DPS.

If it was bumped to 3.8 speed, we'd be looking at an average frontload of 564, max ~670. Is it possible they're avoiding this due to PvP imbalance?

Considering the highest current max frontload weapon (Torch) is just 5 damage shy of 600 max frontload, having the next upgrade be close to 700 max frontload would be pretty extreme.

Just some theorizing, nothing conclusive, but one has to wonder if that's the reason