We run 2 enhancement shamans on Brutallus so technically 2 melee groups. I am getting WF/GoA/SoE totems and Unleashed Rage and LotP and an incomplete drum rotation, just not any other bones. I said that I wasn't in the HEROISM group, as we rotate shamans into the groups when 2min trinket CDs are up.

Typically I'm in the tank group with resto SoE/WF and half a drum roatation: Warr, Sham, Ret, Feral, Rogue. Not bad but not blowing doors off hinges either.

Ill look at your math some more Zurm, but a more thorough analysis would be helpful. I showed my RL some Ret/Rogue math that was based on T5 vaules and basically got told Nice Try.

Spreadsheet will be listed of course, if anything for historical purposes/to give credit where credit is due.

Toaster, regarding Mac and .Net programs (Rawr), have you tried: Main Page - Mono

Ah, your situation is more complicated in that case, Salty. What I can say is that my guild has made it a point to make sure I get windfury, as I easily do 3500+ dps during lust and AW. Not getting a combined Lust/AW usually lowers my fight dps by 250+ dps, and is the sole reason I haven't broken 2k dps on brutallus yet (stupid coordinating of lusts...)

Well I'm testing JoW procs from crusader judgement refreshes as we speak and it looks like it will be confirmed that it increases the proc rate. I am seeing what looks like "double procs" on a regular basis. the test should be concluded in another 8 minutes and I'll post the WWS.

Just to confirm, Morindor - do you have any points in Vindication currently?

Testing complete here is the WWS:

Wow Web Stats

and the math:

hits: 589 + 42 + 1(holy shock oops!) = 632

JoW ticks: 643

643/632??? = 1.0174 or 102% - interesting I'm not sure how this happened to be honest, I only ever had a white swing, and only once holy shocked by accident.

Anyhow the data supports what I saw during the fight, although I am really confused by the numbers anyone else have an explanation other then RNG?
It looks like refreshing a judgement other then JoW will proc JoW and is most likely the reason behind the increased proc rates. Bye Bye Vindication...

We just let our enh shammy use his heroism at ~4:10 in. This way it's timed with the 2nd potion cooldown/2nd trinket cooldown for everyone, the rogues' 2nd Blade Flurry and the warrior and I just delay our 2nd Death Wish/AW until then (you can't use AW more than 2 times at Brut, so nothing is lost by delaying).

That looks pretty conclusively like white hits have two 50% chances (100% chance total) to proc JoW, when it's someone else's JoW, and you're refreshing your own judgement. So if you kept doing that for hours, you could expect a 100% proc rate, average (50% giving one proc, 25% giving no proc, 25% giving double procs). You just got slightly lucky in that test, getting 102%. So the high proc rate WWS's so far been roughly 85% proc rate, not 100%, because not all attacks are white (and have double proc chance).

EDIT: In other words, flyingtoastr's hypothesis in his post on the last page appears to be correct.

Well I look forward to dropping my points in Vindication then!

However, given that we appear to be making use of a bugged(or at least unintended) JoW mechanic AND 2 piece T6 to become reasonably mana efficient/self sufficient, it throws into harsh relief our mana problems. I hope they have a comprehensive fix for that coming in Wrath, and that they do not fix this JoW mechanic before then.

So, does that mean that whichever paladin is doing the judging is also getting the extra procs? It's usually our prot pally who judges wisdom, so I should be getting extra procs for refreshing it w/ my CS, but he should be getting exras for his extra melee swings refreshing it as well?

I think they're saying that if someone else has a JoW on the mob, and you have ANY judgement on the mob, your white swings wil have two chances to proc. Whomever has wisdom on the mob will never get that chance.

This has nothing to do with CS, Command Procs, or Consecrates - which is why the numbers we're seeing in raids is closer to 85% proc rate, and not closer to 100%.

If the prot pala is the caster of the JoW he will only get the "normal" one chance to proc JoW as his melee swing hits the mob.
If the JoW is cast by a holy pala and refreshed by the Ret pala's CS and the Prot has cast JoL, both the Ret and the Prot have the chance to proc an extra JoW as they refresh their own Judgements by melee hits. right?

I think this pretty much settles it, this is the "missing link" we were looking for to explain the JoW weirdness, nice work Also means good bye vindication for pve specs.

For future calculations, just assume a rough ~85% proc chance for JoW if you're using the right rotations and a holy paladin sets the JoW (which should always be the case).


(Quick, hide the posts!) In other news, if this "bug" is fixed, we'd be looking at a very harsh mana nerf. Considering most report up to 20k mana returned from JoW at Brutallus and current ~85% proc chance combining all abilities, if it goes down to the supposed 50%, we'll lose roughly ~8k mana off that.

I think this would leave us in a pretty tight spot mana wise.

Yes if a group has a prot pally, a ret pally, and a holly pally then getting the holly pally to cast JoW is the best solution.

Bug... no I'm sure Blizzard in their infinite wisdom intended this from the start in order to solve our mana issues... (sucking up can't hurt can it?)

In an upcomming patch, seal of the crusader is getting buffed. It now makes crusader strike do 40% more damage, in other words it now does 150% weapon damage. Add 356 bonus ATP and 40% faster attack, does this make seal of command the weaker of the two? not to mention 40% faster attack procs crits much faster, potentially getting the +15% dmg bonus on shorter time. In theory, you would still jude crusader upon entering battle, but i think this makes seal of the crusader do more dps than seal of command. any thoughts?

This has been questioned just a page or two back, I'ld suggest going back and reading what others have said.

Edit: Looks like page 148 and 149 have what you are looking for.

No it isn't. Its a 6% proc chance on the heal.

Ret Pallies without JoW done by another Pally still have mana problems.


It will be a great day to see the Wrath Pally changes, less reliance on mana is great.

It seems a new build has been deployed to the PTR. Perhaps someone could test SOTC again? I'm still holding out that CS is getting a damage buff from it, which would help with PvP at the very least.

Damn, I'm too late, had a bunch of wws of Brutallus without Vindication... and the issue's solved already ><

Excellent, we no longer have to experience "Immune" messages all the damn time.

Lets just hope this isn't fixed anytime soon. =)

Thanks again for the conclusive testing done to prove this!

It doesn't, Its only a change that affects ret paladins that chooses to judge crusader on raid trash while their judgement is still on cooldown when they are switching to different mobs. This just made Crusader Strike not suck while having SotC activated pretty much making you do a normal amount of damage.