Elitist Jerks Retribution DPS Theorycraft

02/17/08, 5:00 PM   #2281
Rasputin
King Hippo

Magtheridon
 Originally Posted by Onacouch What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste. Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?
No, I think I just didn't have a sufficient number of hits to eliminate variance in proc rate. If the PPM looked like that after some 10,000 hits that might be cause for concern. I'm no statistician but I feel like for ~1500 hits a .61 variance of the PPM falls within the margin for error. Hopefully those gloves and a ring will drop this next week(no competition so I'll almost definitely get them) and I'll be able to get a sample closer to 5,000 hits at least within a week or so.

02/17/08, 6:40 PM   #2282
Aramul
Piston Honda

Lightbringer
 Originally Posted by Onacouch What is it that we're trying to conclude here? That haste makes SoC proc less often somehow? I thought SoC was being tested to determine if it scaled at all with haste. Regardless of haste I was expecting SoC to come in at 7PPM, am I wrong in this assumption?
PPM has nothing to do with the number of procs over an interval, it only sets the percent chance of a proc on any given hit. The number of procs needs to be compared to the number of hits to determine the chance of a proc, and that number should be compared to the expected chance.

Edit:

A 3.70 speed weapon should proc SoC on 43.17% of the hits.
A 3.46 speed weapon should proc SoC on 40.37% of the hits.

Melee hit 1066 times and crit 494 times. 1560 total hits.
SoC hit 400 times, and crit 156 times. 556 total procs.

Actual proc rate is 556/1560 = 35.64%

Last edited by Aramul : 02/17/08 at 6:49 PM.

02/17/08, 11:11 PM   #2283
Fiola
Great Tiger

Skywall
 Originally Posted by Avitus ... Emphasis mine. Your post just further proves my point. It took "community feedback" to get the threat reduction change implemented, without it they "might" have not added it. Which is why I believe we're in a similar situation atm with the horde vs alliance/SoB vs SoC haste gear imbalance. And as much as I dread to be promoting such a thing, I think blizz forum whining might actually be required to make a change. -SoB/SoV have to be given to the other factions or -SoC mechanics have to be changed to benefit more from the new haste itemization and be a true upgrade over SoB (as it should be, since it's a non-trainer seal).
My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate)

S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP.

Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.

02/18/08, 12:49 AM   #2284
Subject
Von Kaiser

Tortheldrin
 Originally Posted by Buliwyf a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc.. seems it's pretty simple #showtooltip Seal of Blood /cast Judgement /cast Seal of Blood the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..
Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?

02/18/08, 2:04 AM   #2285
flyingtoastr
Bald Bull

Draka
 Originally Posted by Fiola My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate) S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP. Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.
Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.

I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).

On a side note, I just got back from my first Hyjal run as ret. It was quite enjoyable and an excellent break from the monotony of healing.

02/18/08, 2:36 AM   #2286
Los
Glass Joe

Coilfang
 Originally Posted by Subject Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?
I use

#showtooltip
/cast Judgement
/castsequence reset=8 Seal of Blood, Judgement
/startattack

I used to have a simple Judge/reseal but i always had the same problem you have, as im a button spammer too.

02/18/08, 2:51 AM   #2287
Subject
Von Kaiser

Tortheldrin
 Originally Posted by Los I use #showtooltip /cast Judgement /castsequence reset=8 Seal of Blood, Judgement /startattack I used to have a simple Judge/reseal but i always had the same problem you have, as im a button spammer too.
Appreciated, ill give it a shot next raid.

 02/18/08, 3:29 AM #2288 Siral Glass Joe   Siral Blood Elf Paladin   Crushridge (EU) If you wanna be a "real" one-button spammer you must use this macro /castsequence reset=target/combat Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike Keep an eye about your GCD and never judge right after a Crusader Strike but wait for your GCD so you can Judge and Seal in the same moment and dont lose Seal up time and cast if possibile Consecration or Exorcsim in the dead times between Crusader Strikes
02/18/08, 3:35 AM   #2289
Valerys
Don Flamenco

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by Buliwyf a few pages back i was looking for a way to tighten up seals etc.. seems it's pretty simple #showtooltip Seal of Blood /cast Judgement /cast Seal of Blood the "#showtooltip Seal of Blood" part prevents me from accidentally judging during the GCD and farking of the seal recast elements of the macro. now i have to wait until wednesday to test it in a proper raid situation..
Hi Veilyn.

I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.

 02/18/08, 3:38 AM #2290 Valerys Don Flamenco     Valerys Blood Elf Paladin   Argent Dawn (EU) Regarding the above SoC discussion. With all the deluge of haste on our gear, plus the storyline about blood knights getting in chummy with A'dal, I would be extremely surprised if the faction seals are not shared out. Seems like Blizzard is prepping all paladins for SoB. And yes that 2h badge axe is second only to Apollyon for BEs. Although Cataclysm's Edge is only less than 1 dps below it (at least for me).
 02/18/08, 7:40 AM #2291 Valerys Don Flamenco     Valerys Blood Elf Paladin   Argent Dawn (EU) Did a little spreadsheet twisting for SoB with the new items. As it stands now, the "best" gear in 2.4 for SoB should be the below (bar discovery of new even better items on later Sunwell bosses). Crown of Anasterian, glyph of ferocity, relentless earthstorm diamond, 10 str Pauldrons of Berserking, greater inscription, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit Warharness of Reckless Fury, stats, 10 str, 2x 5 str/5 crit Lightbringer Bands, brawn, 5 str/7 stam (first blue gem for metagem reqs) Hard Khorium Battlefists, major strength, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit Lightbringer Belt, 10 str Felfury Legplates, nethercobra, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit, 5 str/7 stam (second blue gem for metagem reqs) Lightbringer Boots, dexterity, 10 str Cloak of Fiends, greater agility Choker of Endless Nightmares (Hard Khorium Choker is nice but loses too much +hit, it's the most efficient piece to skip) Stormrage Signet Ring Hard Khorium Band Shard of Contempt Dragonspine Trophy (or Berserker's Call if you don't have DST - Crusade Card comes in third) Libram of Avengement Apolyon, the Soul Render, mongoose Note that the above puts you at 8.7% hit with Precision. Depending on which theorycraft you believe, you need either 8.6% or 9% for bosses. If the latter, a 10 hit gem in some yellow slot should do the trick.
02/18/08, 9:10 AM   #2292
Buliwyf
Von Kaiser

Argent Dawn (EU)
 Originally Posted by Valerys Hi Veilyn. I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.
yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point.

dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be.

you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..

02/18/08, 11:06 AM   #2293
Holtzhammer
Von Kaiser

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Buliwyf yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point. dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be. you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..
The whole point that they're trying to make is that they want to weave CS and Judgements into their damage cycle while maintaing 100% Seal uptime, and its extremely hard to do that, even with a face-mashing macro. "waiting 1-2 seconds" is wasted DPS for a spec trying to maximize it. Its the entire reason Sanc. Judgement exists.

 02/18/08, 11:47 AM #2294 Buliwyf Von Kaiser   Veilyn Blood Elf Paladin   Argent Dawn (EU) sometimes, due to swing timer, CS and GCD, 100% judge cooldown usage is just not possible. 100% seal uptime is possible however. hence the point of this macro. what i was saying is, if your judge cooldown comes when you're .5 seconds away from auto swing and 1.5 seconds away from CS. then it is best to let the auto swing happen, CS when the Cooldown comes and then judge/reseal. if in this scenario you hit the judge/reseal right away in order to maintain maximum cooldowns on judges then you risk having 0 seal active at the auto swing (possible lag). if you wait one second until after the auto swing and judge/reseal then the GCD from the reseal will delay your CS by half a second... all in all defeating the point of button mashing in the first place. so you prioritise having active seal at the auto swing and the CS. let 1.5-2sec waste on your judge timer and then blam judge/reseal whilst the middle of your CS cooldown and easily inbetween swings..
02/18/08, 12:48 PM   #2295
Fiola
Great Tiger

Skywall
 Originally Posted by flyingtoastr Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.
It was a damage nerf, yet there was no community outcry because they didn't think it was one.

If there was a change that involved "CS now only does 90% weapon damage" (but with some other buff that increased overall damage), I bet the overall reaction would have been very different.

 I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).
It wasn't terrible. For sustained full DPS spam (CS, JoC, SoC), S3v1 flat out did more damage than S3v2 on Leather+ targets. For cloth, S3v2 was *slightly* better BEFORE factoring in ArP (Which would add 1~% physical damage, more on a cloth target).

Then remember that cloth classes tend to have the most avoidance skills (fears, roots), reducing the damage contribution of auto-attack (which is the only thing that makes AP better than +dmg)

For controlled burst, 154~ +dmg will beat 83 Str.

With raid buffs + debuffs, maybe the balance goes back in favor of AP. But I don't get raid buffs/debuffs in 2v2 or 3v3 or BGs. Neither does the typical Ret paladin.

That I still have to explain this shows that perception trumps reality for community feedback. And yes, I know it's all moot now, but I don't like mis-representation of past changes.

 Elitist Jerks Retribution DPS Theorycraft