No, I think I just didn't have a sufficient number of hits to eliminate variance in proc rate. If the PPM looked like that after some 10,000 hits that might be cause for concern. I'm no statistician but I feel like for ~1500 hits a .61 variance of the PPM falls within the margin for error. Hopefully those gloves and a ring will drop this next week(no competition so I'll almost definitely get them) and I'll be able to get a sample closer to 5,000 hits at least within a week or so.

My problem with it is that mass whining doesn't necessarily ask for the right things. The S3 + CS change, for example, is a PvE raid DPS buff. For PvP (burst, sustained damage), the changes break even at best, and lost some other side benefits I happen to like. (scaling for SoR, heal & consecrate)


S3 is PvP gear ... the change based on community feedback did not make it any better for PvP.


Maybe it'll be an unquestionable upgrade after 2.4... but then why not make the changes then instead of now? Because the community wanted *some* change now, even if the supporting talent/mechanics changes did not come with it.

Is there a way to prevent you from recasting the seal? Like sometimes I spam judge and it recasts and wastes mana, any way to make sure its not up already before casting?

Blizzard seems to be taking the class changes for ret incredibly slowly. I could be that they've learned from the huge mistakes they made in the giant class review patches of Vanilia (where they would change entire playstyles of classes in a single patch), or it could simply be that they have no idea what direction they want to take the spec in right now. My bets lie on the first option. Its pretty clear from the removal of SD from the sets and the redesign of CS that we are moving towards the removal of spell damage from the ret tree. By introducing the changes gradually they are able to monitor just how much each thing is affected and more informed choices on future decisions from there.

I think you're forgetting the first incarnation of the S3 ret armor (with spell damage, resilliance, and armor penetration) and just how terrible it was. Thanks to community feedback the set was redesigned, and though it may not be "perfect" in your books, it sure is better itemized than almost everything else we get. Generally I find simply that the general public on the WoW boards have no idea what they're talking about, and get a lot of misinformation (look at all the "2.3 sets are a nerf!" or "2.3.2 CS is a nerf!" or "2.4 sets are a nerf!" threads that pop up that are completely incorrect).

On a side note, I just got back from my first Hyjal run as ret. It was quite enjoyable and an excellent break from the monotony of healing.

Appreciated, ill give it a shot next raid.

If you wanna be a "real" one-button spammer you must use this macro

/castsequence reset=target/combat Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike

Keep an eye about your GCD and never judge right after a Crusader Strike but wait for your GCD so you can Judge and Seal in the same moment and dont lose Seal up time and cast if possibile Consecration or Exorcsim in the dead times between Crusader Strikes

Hi Veilyn.

I've been using the same as above for a while now, since I don't like extensive macros. Just remember to prioritize CS over it, if both CDs come up at the same time.

Did a little spreadsheet twisting for SoB with the new items. As it stands now, the "best" gear in 2.4 for SoB should be the below (bar discovery of new even better items on later Sunwell bosses).

Crown of Anasterian, glyph of ferocity, relentless earthstorm diamond, 10 str
Pauldrons of Berserking, greater inscription, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Warharness of Reckless Fury, stats, 10 str, 2x 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Bands, brawn, 5 str/7 stam (first blue gem for metagem reqs)
Hard Khorium Battlefists, major strength, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit
Lightbringer Belt, 10 str
Felfury Legplates, nethercobra, 10 str, 5 str/5 crit, 5 str/7 stam (second blue gem for metagem reqs)
Lightbringer Boots, dexterity, 10 str
Cloak of Fiends, greater agility
Choker of Endless Nightmares (Hard Khorium Choker is nice but loses too much +hit, it's the most efficient piece to skip)
Stormrage Signet Ring
Hard Khorium Band
Shard of Contempt
Dragonspine Trophy (or Berserker's Call if you don't have DST - Crusade Card comes in third)
Libram of Avengement
Apolyon, the Soul Render, mongoose

Note that the above puts you at 8.7% hit with Precision. Depending on which theorycraft you believe, you need either 8.6% or 9% for bosses. If the latter, a 10 hit gem in some yellow slot should do the trick.

yeah, i'm a born slacker so only just got round to doing it. this macro is all about slacking :p but what you say about CS priority leads me to the next point.

dthere should be no need to button spam this macro. CS is the priority, button spam that one and make sure you catch your judge/reseal macro before the end of the swing timer (allow for lag). i rarely judge exactly when the judgement timer is exactly up because the swing timer and CS are the priority and Judgement can wait an extra 1-2 seconds if need be.

you shouldn't need to be trying to judge/seal before or one mili second after the CD is gone. judgeing, by comparison to active seal on swing and CS is just not as important. well, my opinion anyway..

The whole point that they're trying to make is that they want to weave CS and Judgements into their damage cycle while maintaing 100% Seal uptime, and its extremely hard to do that, even with a face-mashing macro. "waiting 1-2 seconds" is wasted DPS for a spec trying to maximize it. Its the entire reason Sanc. Judgement exists.

It was a damage nerf, yet there was no community outcry because they didn't think it was one.

If there was a change that involved "CS now only does 90% weapon damage" (but with some other buff that increased overall damage), I bet the overall reaction would have been very different.


It wasn't terrible. For sustained full DPS spam (CS, JoC, SoC), S3v1 flat out did more damage than S3v2 on Leather+ targets. For cloth, S3v2 was *slightly* better BEFORE factoring in ArP (Which would add 1~% physical damage, more on a cloth target).

Then remember that cloth classes tend to have the most avoidance skills (fears, roots), reducing the damage contribution of auto-attack (which is the only thing that makes AP better than +dmg)

For controlled burst, 154~ +dmg will beat 83 Str.


With raid buffs + debuffs, maybe the balance goes back in favor of AP. But I don't get raid buffs/debuffs in 2v2 or 3v3 or BGs. Neither does the typical Ret paladin.



That I still have to explain this shows that perception trumps reality for community feedback. And yes, I know it's all moot now, but I don't like mis-representation of past changes.