Veneda

Did he respec in the meantime? He is fury now (armory).

 

Obbee

We had 2 warriors in the raid, Farund (Farund - WWS) is the MS warrior.

 

• Avitus

I don't think this ever was the solution really. Putting int on our items ultimately always made them inferior to warrior plate/rogue leather due to requiring part of the itemvalue for that.

A gear based solution would be to exempt int on plate from the itemvalue, though that's a Pandora's box I doubt blizzard will be likely to open, for good reason.

Which leaves the only plausible solution to be the previously discussed Str/AP -> Int/Mana regen talent (or trainer passive).

Keep in mind, despite int occasionally hunter mail can be pretty good. The only reason for that however is the additional separation between agi and crit on those items, so stats are better distributed (= you get more stats for your itemvalue) or special items like [Boneweave Girdle] which don't have stam.


Yea I ran those tests a few dozen pages back, basically the only thing that doesn't get affected by the -spelldamage from Fel Mana Potions seems to be spelldamage from JotC. Seems in general spelldamage from JotC is unaffected by any multipliers (for example sanctity aura), buffs or debuffs.

Everything else (which shows up on your character screen) is affected, so yea imp Divine Spirit, Warth of Air totem will take a hit from Fel Mana Potions, same as procs/effects like Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Also note, when taking Fel Mana Potions past 0 spell damage, you're character sheet will list "minus spelldamage" in red. According to a few tests I ran -spelldamage is the same as 0 spelldamage however.


Out of curiosity, what was his party makeup and how many heroism's did he get? Might have to have a talk with our warriors *cough*

 

• Zurm

Our warrior, while normally fury, tends to beat me even while MS. The only time I beat him is when he's debuffing. That being said, he throws all kinds of QQ's when we ask him to spec MS/Slam because of the personal dps loss, and the fact that his fury gear right now is pretty amazing.


Bakatora, if anyone's curious. Look in my sig's WWS link to see his performance. He was MS/Slam for Brutallus this week, I believe.

 

Deimosfobos

Obbee, you gear is really good. But if you are using the same gear you have on armory for PvE I see 2 big mistakes i don't know why you missed them.

1- Your expertise rating is too high, overkill actually. The 3 new T6 parts (grats) + Shard + Hmn racial with maces/swords add to a lot more expertise than the one you need. Drop Shard, and equip the ZA trinket or something similar, you dps will go up no dout.

2- Your hit rating is too low, you are missing 1.5% hit to be capped. Either change a few gems or change something in your gear. Don't you have hyjal shoulders? Thats 1.1% hit right there.

Great work anyways, breaking 2k as alliance is like doing 2.2k/2.3k as BE.

 

• Zurm

Unless he has a moonkin in the raid... I can't check right now because I get script errors on WWS, but thats something to note.

I highly doubt the disparity between horde and alliance is over 10%... MAYBE 7%, but I'm fairly confident that gap is quickly diminishing with the new gear. That being said, I have yet to get a Brutallus kill where everything goes right, I'm still excited to flex my e-nuts one of these days.

 

Obbee

I do raid with a moonkin, and I got the t6 boots yesterday so thats why my expertise is high, but changing to ZA trinket would bring me to 1.5% below the exp "cap" and im not sure its worth it.

As I got the t6 boots im exp capped even without the human racial, so im thinking about looting a felspine over my torch not sure yet.

 

• Zurm

I can't speak for alliance, but my personal experience with [Shivering Felspine] has been VERY positive. Hits about as hard as a torch, just way faster. All the new gear I've gotten with haste has given me a huge dps upgrade.

 

Deimosfobos

I never raided with a moonkin, so I never though of that

Regarding expertise, you have 1.3% too much, acording to the spreedsheet, shard is no longer the best in slot trinket if you have 3 piaces of T6 + racial. At leat untill you get Felspine you should consider using another trinket, if you have a good one of course.

 

Deimosfobos

Actually the diference is only getting bigger, since haste rich gear is getting as common as it gets. A BE pally with Obbee gear should outdps him ez by 200dps. The better the gear, the bigger the diference, even without haste gear, because SoB simply scales batter.

 

Togi

This Monday our guild transitioned from SSC/TK into Hyjal for the first time and after downing the two first bosses this "fast" progress made us end up in the Horde base and facing Kaz'rogal. I found myself Dpsing with huge mana problems on him - basically just Auto attacking. The fight ended at 24 % with me at ~500 DPS, i was pushing 1000 on Anetheron.

So now i ask how you usually do on this fight, i take it you're not reduced to Auto attacking. I wasn't wearing any Shadow Resistance since we were not actually prepared at going this far also my Mana pool is ~6k-ish mana. You using any special tricks or just stack a shit load of SR ?

 

noth

Shadow resist makes things a lot easier. Mana pot when you get the first mark, bubble out of the 2nd, hopefully pot for the 3rd, after that we start getting into trouble. a fast weapon and Seal of Wisdom can keep you from exploding if you run low. I've never done really stellar DPS on that fight, personally. I think our role there is to keep wisdom up for other folks as long as possible, and if necessary die without killing anyone else.

 

flyingtoastr

I wear full (365) Shadow Resistance for that fight and its still a pain in the butt. Just as Noth said your only real job on that fight is to just keep JoW up so the casters aren't running out of mana as quickly.

And don't blow up your fury warrior either, he'll bitch about it all night.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

• Avitus

Can't recall having much of a problem at Kaz'rogal. Sure you can't go all out and have to watch your mana, but I never needed to wear Shadow res gear.

Admittedly when you start in Hyjal your raid DPS is a lot lower, so you'll have to tough it out a bit longer, but still if you have the correct raid buffs and debuffs on the boss, it should be ok.

Just make sure you have: BoW, JoW, Mana Spring. Use Fel Mana Potions. If you have a Dark Rune, this is a good fight to use one.

Don't use consecration, only use Exorcism if you think you're in the clear and your mana should be going up most of the time.

Bubble a full mana drain effect at some point.


Here's a recent WWS log at Kaz'rogal: Wow Web Stats

No shadow res used


Rawr lists Shard of Contempt ahead of everything except DMC:C and Dragonspine, even with 3x T6 expertise pieces and racial. Going to Berserker's Call seems to be a 10 DPS loss.

Problem is, if you ditch the Shard, you're 24.5 under the expertise cap. So even though you will be effectively wasting 19.5 expertise if you do use it, it's still seems to be superior to most other trinkets.


Regarding SoB vs SoC: With more haste gear the discrepancy is actually increasing unfortunately, not diminishing :/ Given end of Sunwell gear we'll be looking at over 200 DPS difference according to Rawr, especially with drum rotations.

 

• Avitus

Just noticed this now, I'm surprised at how a lot of people are attempting this differently.

Some are going all out Shadow Res gear, some use moderate Shadow res and some don't use any at all. I have best results with 0 shadow res gear as mentioned above.

 

noth

I'd go full, but it borks up my meta gem. I've found moderate success with cloak, neck & boots, but your milage may vary.

 

Togi

I'm always using Fel mana potions, Avitus - Thank you for researching out different benefits from Potions. The group setup was Resto Shaman, Feral, Fury War, Ret, Rogue. We are currently missing an Enhancement Shaman, hence we use a Resto.
Will make sure i bring Dark Runes next time - should equal some more DPS. Other than that i quess i will just have to manage my Mana.

 

Sterlin

I did kaz last night with just my BT neck - rest normal

take a mana pot, make some healers toss you some heals or a renew - your good to go

I had to bubble and run out for the last 10 seconds though ... just luck sometimes

 

Fiola

What if we use the "SoC can proc WF, SoC scales with haste" model? (SoC scaling with haste is implied if WF does not proc SoC) I don't expect that to make up the gap, but it wouldn't be growing as fast.


For my previous question about SoC vs. SoB WF scaling (assuming SoC does proc WF).

If we also assume SoC scales with haste, and a 40% proc rate (low-estimate, since DPS weapons are 3.5~3.8), we get 8% more WF procs, or +8% auto-attack damage. If WF cannot double proc, then that's lowered to +6.4%.
(I'm not sure about the double proc thing. I don't think I've ever seen it, but that's not proof in of itself. There's also a very small chance of it happening: White + SoC + 2x WF : .2 * .4 * .2 = 1.6% chance)

SoB does not proc WF, but can proc off of it, granting +20% * 0.35 = +7% autoattack damage while using WF.


On a slight tangent, this illustrates how dependent we are on WF totem as a DPS boost. It offers us roughly 40~% more benefit to our auto-attack (+20% AA -> +27~28% AA) than other WF-capable classes. (For DW, isn't WF less than +20% due to the OH not getting the WF totem enchant?)


I resisted 2~3 marks on this week's MH run, so luck is definitely a factor. = P

(Does Resilience reduce the mana drained?)

 

• Avitus

There's a value you can change in the hidden sheets of Ballator's spreadsheet to fix SoC at going off the base weapon speed (instead of hasted speed), meaning SoC would get more procs the faster you hit:

The overall conclusion was something around ~50 DPS upwards, but still 150DPS behind SoB in endgame gear.

About SoC proccing WF, well I haven't really looked at this since I don't think it's possible. WF proccing SoC, maybe, but reverse, we'd need some data that suggests this first.


That's actually a pretty interesting suggestion Think I might try that next time we go Hyjal (if I remember!)

 

• frmorrison

This is a good though. I looked up the spells Kaz and Warlocks use and both have the same spell effect. I am pretty sure that means Resilience would mean you lose less mana.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Fiola

http://elitistjerks.com/729256-post3722.html


To sum that post up again, 2/3rds of a random set of Alliance paladins have around 50% more WF procs than expected. SoB-using BElf paladins do not see this variance, and the # of procs is statistically significant. (2~3 Std. Dev. from expected value)

The variable is SoC - and when you include SoC, the # of WF procs you'd expect is much closer to the # of actual WF procs.


It implies
1.) SoC does not proc off WF. If you remove WF procs from the total number of swings, the # of SoC procs to normal hits is roughly what you'd expect.
2.) WF can proc off SoC. By including SoC procs, the WF proc rate becomes "reasonable". (unreasonable is getting more WF procs than expected by 2~3 Std. Deviations)

SoC scaling with haste seems to be implied by some of the WWS parses, but we'd need more data (and perfect SoC rotation parses) to really figure that one out for sure. (The data for SoC is within the range of "being lucky") It would make for an excellent Dev. question somewhere. ("Does SoC scale with haste?")

 

• Zurm

Update:

Latito and I have completed the first draft of the group comparison with Ret Pallies and rogues. Some results are fairly surprising. After we have some guildies double check our math and logic I will post it here. Expect the finished version within the next 12 hours.

 

Rasputin

I have a feeling I'm about to be disappointed and unhappy next raid, since established wisdom is that we're better in the melee group than rogues. Could you possibly say which way the surprise goes? Are we going to be surprised at how much better we are than rogues in a melee group, or are we going to be surprised that we aren't better after all?

 

• Zurm

The answer to that question is complicated, and situational. I would say the answer is neutral overall. As you will see in the assumptions, there are many variables we cannot account for, as we cannot use every spec and class permutation. Current ret pallies need not worry, as a short answer. Hopeful ret pallies will be extremely happy of the findings.