Just noticed this now, I'm surprised at how a lot of people are attempting this differently.
Some are going all out Shadow Res gear, some use moderate Shadow res and some don't use any at all. I have best results with 0 shadow res gear as mentioned above.
My guild seems to always lose RNG (absolutely no necks off Supremus or Trinkets off Bloodboil in the 6 months we've been in T6 content... good game), which also translates into my resist rates apparently. The one time I tried running with less than max SR I ate all the DoTs except one, and despite potting, using a rune, bubbling one of them and Using Blessing of Sacrifice on the tank for a bit more SA regen I was still able to blow up the fury warrior and get bitched at the rest of the night (the rogues found it quite funny though). Since then I haven't bothered trying to go with less than maximum SR.
As for meta requirements, I use my old Tier 5 set socketed with [Void Sphere]s as some of my resist gear which covers the mets requirements nicely.
Rawr
Maxdps.com
Paladin_DPS spreadsheet I found on this forum with the macros
They are all different. Rawr doesn't seem to care about mana and really doesn't value Tier 6. So, out of the three, what do you like to use as a comparison or upgrade guide?
The answer to that question is complicated, and situational. I would say the answer is neutral overall. As you will see in the assumptions, there are many variables we cannot account for, as we cannot use every spec and class permutation. Current ret pallies need not worry, as a short answer. Hopeful ret pallies will be extremely happy of the findings.
Well I'm excited to see what you come up with. Thanks for taking the time to do this Zurm.
I'm also curious about resilience on the Kaz fight. If this is true I might have to look at a gear set I can put together for my guilds up and coming attempts. This was a fight I wasn't really looking forward to.
Rawr
Maxdps.com
Paladin_DPS spreadsheet I found on this forum with the macros
They are all different. Rawr doesn't seem to care about mana and really doesn't value Tier 6. So, out of the three, what do you like to use as a comparison or upgrade guide?
I find with some effort rawr seems to offer me the fastest and most comprehensive suggestions. I find rawr's values for T6 are realistic, it doesn't blow things out of proportion, and rates them above the other sets and below some of the leather/mail and sunwell gear that I would expect it to be be beaten by given my stats. None of these tools consider the set bonus so you have to put you're own value on that.
The worst of these resources is without question Maxdps.com. It does not take enough into account. The site creator has recently posted that he plans to change this so we will see what the future holds for Maxdps.
I've recently started raiding as ret and there's one thing I've been wrestling with -- is Improved Judgement worth the points? And more importantly, if I do want to keep it, what should I drop to get with it? This is mainly only in relation to Brutallus, so dropping points from Benediction to keep it seems like the most effective route. Should also mention I plan on dropping 3 points somewhere (once again probably Benediction) to pick up Pursuit of Justice. I was being stupid when I first speced and didn't think to get it.
Gear still needs work, plan on picking up T6 pieces within the next week (namely shoulders/helm/chest, with bracers being sometime in the near future). Main problem is the stupid Supremus neck, hasn't dropped since January and without it I'm going to have to use the helm from Illidari Council to keep my hit rating capped. Trinket is another slot I need to fix up, however I'm pretty much limited to Berserker's Call or Bloodlust Brooch for the time being, or I can just slap the 80 AP pvp/badge trinket in there and call it a day.
I've recently started raiding as ret and there's one thing I've been wrestling with -- is Improved Judgement worth the points? And more importantly, if I do want to keep it, what should I drop to get with it? This is mainly only in relation to Brutallus, so dropping points from Benediction to keep it seems like the most effective route. Should also mention I plan on dropping 3 points somewhere (once again probably Benediction) to pick up Pursuit of Justice. I was being stupid when I first speced and didn't think to get it.
The spec you're currently showing on the armory (5-8-48) is spot-on. You can drop one point out of Imp. Judgement, since one and two points are both used for the exact same rotation (always prioritizing Crusader Strikes over Judgements), but shouldn't drop two since it's a loss in DPS. If you feel that you absolutely want Pursuit of Justice in your build, and I'll admit that it is nice, then yes, you're best off dropping points from Benediction, so long as you can afford the mana cost. Trading points from anywhere else will cut into your DPS itself rather than your longevity.
Originally Posted by Fadaar
Gear still needs work, plan on picking up T6 pieces within the next week (namely shoulders/helm/chest, with bracers being sometime in the near future). Main problem is the stupid Supremus neck, hasn't dropped since January and without it I'm going to have to use the helm from Illidari Council to keep my hit rating capped. Trinket is another slot I need to fix up, however I'm pretty much limited to Berserker's Call or Bloodlust Brooch for the time being, or I can just slap the 80 AP pvp/badge trinket in there and call it a day.
Run Heroic Magister's Terrace as often as you can until you pick up Shard of Contempt. It's worth the effort. You might also want to swap from Savagery to Mongoose on your Torch. By "might," I mean that there are pages upon pages of discussion, all leading to the conclusion that Mongoose is almost completely always superior, and that you **should** look into this as soon as you can afford the mats.
As far as the helm goes...why not stick with Helm of the Illidari Shatterer over the Lightbringer happily? Given that +hit is starting to become a rarer commodity as we progress into SPlat, it'll serve you in good stead without having to worry about staying capped in the meantime.
"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce
The one time I tried running with less than max SR I ate all the DoTs except one
Is it possible to post a log of the fight? Do you have JoW, BoW and Mana spring? Do you use any consecration?
Where I'm trying to go with this: It might be a possibility that it depends on how your guild does the fight. In my guild no one uses shadow res, at most the BT neck. We resist almost no dots, but have full performance gear on, so the boss goes down pretty quick.
Personally I resist none of the dots (I bubble one), but with no consecration use and only moderate exorcism, if I wanted I could stay at full mana all the time.
I can look, but this was quite some time ago (3 months or so) so I'm not sure if the log is still up.
The only classes we have wearing SR are the ones with chronic mana problems: ret pally, prot pally, mages wear partial. Its not really a question of killing him quickly, its a question of having 5.5k mana fully raid buffed and how quickly it can be burned.
Ready for your viewing pleasure (CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is welcome!):
Feral druids may or may not be added to the comparison in the near future, as is the possibility of a second dps warrior.
Ret Pally vs Rogue Raid Spots
Credits:
Zurm and Latito
of <Disbanded>, Ner'zhul US-PvP
Disclaimer:
There are many assumptions as there are many variables to deal with here. The goal is to SIMPLIFY THE SOLUTION. Most of the major factors have been accounted for, and minor changes wont make a large effect. We also don't know what your guild's entire raid looks like, and that plays a big part. We tried not to be biased, as this is a rogue and a paladin using math to determine the best possible outcomes. There are multiple variations which deal with the question of "where does the 6th melee go?".
Assumptions:
*The melee group consists of 1 dps warrior, 1 enhancement shaman, 2 rogues and 1 open spot.
*The last spot is a toss up between a ret paladin and rogue.
*We are dealing with a Blood Elf paladin. Alliance paladins will show 5-10% less DPS than calculated here.
*Demon Boss, 7685 armor
*Fight Length 6 minutes
(Essentially a Brutallus-like boss)
Raid Buffs:
Imp GOTW
Farie Fire
Mangle
Imp Hunter's Mark
Imp BoM
BoK
Imp Seal of Crusader
Misery
CoR
Sunder x5
Blood Frenzy
Haste Pot on CD
Flask of Relentless Assult (Note: Rawr-Retribution does not support Elixir of Demonslaying)
Hit food (Rogues), Str food (Paladins)
Deadly Poison OH (Rogues)
We believe these are fairly standard raid buffs. If your enhancement shaman doesn't twist (get one that's good and does), the math below will go slightly more in favor of the ret paladin as the rogue gets more out of GOA. The same is true if you don't have a survival hunter, both take a hit but since rogues dual wield they get a little bit more out of flat AP.
Baselines:
The following is assuming typical gear levels mid-sunwell. These players will have access to everything in BT and earlier, and for the sake of argument lets assume access to the 3 new pieces of T6 and any items dropping off those respective bosses (not necessarily all, but maybe 2-3 pieces of new gear). These baselines are raid buffed in a group with NO PARTY BUFFS. If you throw one of these into groups with resto shaman or tank groups, we'll cover that later by adding on to these. Note, we are assuming that the rogue(s) who are by default in the melee group have the warglaive(s), the rogue in question does not have either warglaive.
This is a best guess, we always get the melee group. I used Rawr-Retribution, Latito used the rogue gear spreadsheet to come up with these DPS values, removing ALL party buffs, leaving only raid buffs in, based on our current gear (our guild just killed Eredar Twins). We will use these mods to calculate later baselines, and your guild leaders can use same approach to make comparisons. We rounded up OR down to the nearest multiple of 5 dps to keep things neat.
Group sets:
We are going to ignore the worst case (healer group), as the Baseline essentially covers that. We will try to make these as incremental as possible, but for the sake of forum bandwidth and sanity we will leave it to just a few differences.
Set 1:
Tank Group (Resto sham dropping WF, LoTP from Feral Tank)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Windfury (regular)
*Bloodlust
Ret: 1640 Rogue: 1900
Set 2:
Hunter/Feral DPS Group (Resto sham dropping GOA, 2 BM Hunters, LoTP)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Ferocious Inspiration x2
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Grace of Air (regular)
*Bloodlust
*Righteous Weapon Coating MH for Rogue/Pally
Ret: 1630 Rogue: 1950
Set 3:
Melee Group (DPS War, Rogue, Rogue, Enh Sham)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Strength of Earth (improved)
*Twisted Grace of Air (improved)
*Windfury (improved)
*Bloodlust
*Unleashed Rage
*Battle Shout (improved, no solarian)
*Windfury (improved)
*Drums of Battle x1 (Rawr-Retribution does not support multiple drums)
Ret: 1900 Rogue: 2280
Paladin Raid Contribution:
Here, we need a bunch of assumptions. First, the rogue is NOT using improved expose armor as most guilds use at least 1 warrior tank. While a double-druid/paladin tank situation certainly exists (including in our own guild), this is generally not the standard. In addition, since we don't know your guild's group makeup in specific, we are going to use a fairly generic set of data, so lets take an average brutallus setup...average raid dps around 30k, it would be about 450 raid bonus from Judgement of the Crusader (being conservative, its probably more like 600). As for the party damage, you can get a further benefit from the 2% damage of imp sanctity aura. This number can vary largely depending on who's in the group (and whether or not its a tank group), but lets assume an average DPS group has 4 others who do 1500 dps you are slapping another 120 raid DPS (a conservative amount on a fight like brutalus, more like 160) onto the the final amount. This assumption basically says that if you are questioning whether or not you need a ret paladin or another rogue in the raid, you ALWAYS go with the ret paladin (if and ONLY if you have no ret paladin currently), regardless of what group you slap them in. A rogue would have to have some way of adding MORE than (570-personal DPS difference) raid dps to be more useful... and if you have more than one rogue the expose armor arguement goes out the window.
Scenarios:
This is ignoring the paladins side RDPS benefit from Judgement of the Crusader, as that applies regardless of group.
1) Stick the rogue in the melee group, and the paladin in the tank group: 3950 DPS
Imp Sanc Aura benefit is neglible due to tank dps, we will lower the boost to 30 RDPS from 120.
1640 + 2280 + 30 = 3950 DPS
Yep, that's right. In most scenarios, the rogue is better off in the melee group by a small margin, unless both are forced into a baseline situation. That being said, assuming any reasonable amount of gear and competency a ret paladin is ALWAYS better than another rogue if there is a question of having a ret paladin or not. If your guild is set up in such a way that the ret paladin or rogue would have to sit in a baseline group, you would probably get more raid benefit from dumping the rogue and recruiting another DPSER who can do more than 1645 dps after calculating raid benefit and group buffs (pretty much any dpser). Also, don't forget that a ret paladin brings in an extra set of blessings AND judgement of wisdom refreshing, which together are worth a VERY hefty amount of raid dps.
SHORT ANSWER: If you don't have a ret paladin in the raid, kick a rogue and get one.
Last edited by Zurm : 05/03/08 at 3:32 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
We are going to ignore the worst case (healer group lol), as the Baseline essentially covers that. We will try to make these as incremental as possible, but for the sake of forum bandwidth and sanity we will leave it to just a few differences.
Set 1:
Tank Group (Resto sham dropping WF, LoTP from Feral Tank)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Windfury (regular)
*Bloodlust
Ret: 1640 Rogue: 1900
Set 2:
Hunter/Feral DPS Group (Resto sham dropping GOA, 2 BM Hunters, LoTP)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Leader of the Pack
*Ferocious Inspiration x2
*Strength of Earth (regular)
*Grace of Air (regular)
*Bloodlust
*Righteous Weapon Coating MH for Rogue/Pally
Ret: 1630 Rogue: 1950
Set 3:
Melee Group (DPS War, Rogue, Rogue, Enh Sham)
Buffs Added (from base):
*Strength of Earth (improved)
*Twisted Grace of Air (improved)
*Windfury (improved)
*Bloodlust
*Unleashed Rage
*Battle Shout (improved, no solarian)
*Windfury (improved)
*Drums of Battle x1 (Rawr-Retribution does not support multiple drums)
Ret: 1900 Rogue: 2280
Why do you assume Drums of Battle for the melee group, but not for the Hunter group? Last time I checked, Hunters could be Leatherworkers, too (and in fact, very often are)
To sum that post up again, 2/3rds of a random set of Alliance paladins have around 50% more WF procs than expected. SoB-using BElf paladins do not see this variance, and the # of procs is statistically significant. (2~3 Std. Dev. from expected value)
The variable is SoC - and when you include SoC, the # of WF procs you'd expect is much closer to the # of actual WF procs.
It implies
1.) SoC does not proc off WF. If you remove WF procs from the total number of swings, the # of SoC procs to normal hits is roughly what you'd expect.
2.) WF can proc off SoC. By including SoC procs, the WF proc rate becomes "reasonable". (unreasonable is getting more WF procs than expected by 2~3 Std. Deviations)
SoC scaling with haste seems to be implied by some of the WWS parses, but we'd need more data (and perfect SoC rotation parses) to really figure that one out for sure. (The data for SoC is within the range of "being lucky") It would make for an excellent Dev. question somewhere. ("Does SoC scale with haste?")
Speaking of implications, if it pans out that SoC generates additional WF swings, it also very well balances the "mana from SoB"argument.
The spec you're currently showing on the armory (5-8-48) is spot-on. You can drop one point out of Imp. Judgement, since one and two points are both used for the exact same rotation (always prioritizing Crusader Strikes over Judgements), but shouldn't drop two since it's a loss in DPS. If you feel that you absolutely want Pursuit of Justice in your build, and I'll admit that it is nice, then yes, you're best off dropping points from Benediction, so long as you can afford the mana cost. Trading points from anywhere else will cut into your DPS itself rather than your longevity.
Run Heroic Magister's Terrace as often as you can until you pick up Shard of Contempt. It's worth the effort. You might also want to swap from Savagery to Mongoose on your Torch. By "might," I mean that there are pages upon pages of discussion, all leading to the conclusion that Mongoose is almost completely always superior, and that you **should** look into this as soon as you can afford the mats.
As far as the helm goes...why not stick with Helm of the Illidari Shatterer over the Lightbringer happily? Given that +hit is starting to become a rarer commodity as we progress into SPlat, it'll serve you in good stead without having to worry about staying capped in the meantime.
Thank you much. After spending a few hours last night toying around with gear setups (namely with Rawr) I came to the exact same conclusion on both the helm and the trinket. I had completely forgotten about that MgT trinket when I posted, so it's going to be my other trinket along with the Assassin's Alchemist Stone. Might lose a tiny bit of dps over the long run (over say Berserker's Call), but never having to worry about mana will overcome that entirely. Same with the helm, depending on which neck I use I might need to keep it to have my hit rating be high enough.
Can righteous weapon coating coexist with Wind fury - I thought not like sharpening stones... has something changed?
My other question is about Rawr ... I still can't figure out how Vengence Wrap beats Cloak of Darkness
Vengeance Wrap
89 Armor
Red Socket
+2 hit rating w/ socket
Crit 23
AP 54
Darkness
101 armor
23 STR - which equates to 50.6 AP with Divine STR and then with Kings
25 Stamina (gotta stay alive)
Blue Socket
+2 crit strike w/ socket
Crit 24
I just don't understand how Rawr Rates this higher.. what am I missing?
Can righteous weapon coating coexist with Wind fury - I thought not like sharpening stones... has something changed?
I just don't understand how Rawr Rates this higher.. what am I missing?
No, RWC doesn't stack with Windfury.
For the cloaks, two possibilities: A) 23crit+54ap+2hit > 24crit+50.6ap. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. Stam doesn't contribute to DPS (directly)
or B) Vengeance Wrap has a gem of a color you need for your meta requirement, and Darkness doesn't, so you'd be losing your meta bonus if you switched to Darkness.
I'd like to ask something about group setup. In the above post made by Zurm which btw was very nice to read, i'd like to know why you didn't include a feral druid as comparison?
The reason for asking is, we usually run with a melee group of enh. shaman, warrior, 2x rogue and feral or another warrior. We do not have any retribution paladins so that leaves him out atm and our guild leader is still a bit skeptical about it, as in, he needs to be convinced about retri dps and benefits.
I've been gathering information about retridins and there benefits to a raid, but i think i need some more concrete evidence. For instance, the above setup vs a setup with enh. shaman, 2x rogue, warrior and retri. Or Enh. shaman, 1x rogue, warrior, feral and retri.
I've been reading quite a bit about it on this forum but i haven't seen much of those setups. I might have missed it somewhere, and i haven't read it all, its so much to read, 150 pages and counting.
If somebody would be so kind to explain it to me or point me in a direction for this i would really appreciate that.
I didn't include the feral druid because it wasn't even a close competition. Feral druids don't get any benefit out of windfury, and the mechanics they work off of means they get less per point of AP than a pally or rogue (hence why they tend to have A LOT more). If you really want me to include the feral druid I can, but feral druids are much better off in a hunter group than melee group, if you can only place them in one.
If you guys REALLY want me to do the math, I will, but I'm telling you it wont even be close. Feral druids just can't compete when it comes to the benefit of a melee group.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
i do know they cant use WF, but what about the aura they give? 5% crit is quite something. So you're saying that the benefits a retri gives (aura, judgments) surpass that of a 5% crit a feral can give?
In other worths, the total DPS of the melee group would be higher with a retri then with feral?
I wouldn't mind the math, its something i would look forward to, to be honost, but you don't have to do it just for me
On the 1/2 vs 2/2 imp Judgement point - couldn't you just wait a second with 2/2 for the same effect as 1/2 and get the same results with more flexibility?
On the 1/2 vs 2/2 imp Judgement point - couldn't you just wait a second with 2/2 for the same effect as 1/2 and get the same results with more flexibility?
Yes, at the cost of not using that point somewhere else.
The whole point of putting just 1 point in Improved Judgement is to make the rotation easier to work with, with 2/2 Crusader Strike cd and Judgement cd will coincide fairly often and if you judge before CS you are in for a DPS loss. So, of course it's possible to wait that extra second, if you have the patience!
It all comes down to watching your cooldowns. If you're smart and pay attention you will never run into a "Judgement pushed back my CS because I have 2/2" situation. That extra point does absolutely nothing elsewhere, so I've never understood why you would even bother dropping a point from it.
I'd love to see Ferals added to that comparison as well. For certain, ferals do *tons* more dps in the melee group. Imp SoE, Imp GoA, UR, and Imp BS are *huge*. Compared to being with 3 hunters and a resto sham, the difference is hundreds of dps. (200+ for me) I believe the melee group gets more benefit from LotP than the hunter group does, as well.
It kind of sucks that the melee group is always enhsham, dpswarr, rogue, rogue, and then you get rogues, dpswarrs, and ferals all fighting for one slot.
05/02/08, 9:09 PM
