For the dps comparison, is RWC better than instant Poison for a Rogue?

Another thing Sanc Aura has a 30 yard range, is the hunter usually close enough to get the 2% damage from the aura?

Good analysis otherwise.

One thing about the analysis:

Basically the conclusion is if we're talking ret vs rogue in melee vs hunter group it's +/- 30 DPS. So ultimately, it comes down to player skill/gear.

Possibly as a side note however: WF does give more mana to ret. Does it outdo those 30 DPS? I'd say yes.

Yea, but like i said its pretty difficult to quantify mana into DPS. Skill is a bigger part IMO, yes, and there's a reason we did the math... it shows how close the difference is anyway.

Also, Latito told me that RWC was approximately equal to Instant Poison, and I'm sure it wouldn't make a huge difference on the final result.

There are a few factors that come into play here. First, when talking strictly about the personal dps for the rogue, Instant Poison will come out *slightly* ahead. Instant poison does not scale with as many stats as RWC does however, and as such RWC will tend to become closer at end-game gear. Either way, we're talking about a difference of ~5 personal dps.

Then you need to think about raid dps. If you have an Enhancement Shaman (which this report assumes) and an Elemental Shaman (reasonably standard).. instant poison is a VERY wrong thing to do. Consuming the Stormstrike charges with instant poison instead of letting the elemental shaman have them is a costly thing for raid dps. Your raid would be better off not having anything at all on your weapon.



As for Ferals, consider the tradeoffs:
In the hunter group they get 100% uptime on regular SoE and 100% uptime on regular GoA. They get 2x FI. In the melee group they will get 100% uptime on imp SoE (small gain), ~85% uptime on imp GoA (roughly equal to hunter group), UR and Battle shout (~900+ AP). Certianly 900+ AP is more beneficial than 2x FI, but by how much I am not sure. The 5% crit aura is used quite well in the Hunter group as well - it only affects 3 dps'ers instead of 4, however that 5% crit is quite big for the BM hunters when talking about maintaining FI uptime. Also, if your survival hunter is a bit lower on Crit, that 5% goes a long way to keeping EW up. Those benefits are slightly more intangible and at the very least a lot harder to calculate, but certainly important to note. Extra crit will certainly increase Flurry uptime on both the warrior and enhancement shaman, but not by a *substantial* amount. UR shouldn't be falling off ever long before this level of gearing.

Since we now can start speccing away from Vindication for PvE, what's you opinion on Eye for an Eye in PvE ? Not sure if there's some rule set for what spells it reflects. A boss spell being reflected for 1-1.5k aint bad for a couple of points that i would have else put in Imp BoM.

Thank you.

PvE spells do not crit, so Eye for an Eye will only ever proc on a boss if you are wearing resilience, at the appropriate rate. That means if you're using the S3 gloves, you have a 0.66% chance to proc EfE each time you are hit with a spell. So it's not really worth it, especially if you are moving through Sunwell and will be using those crafted gloves. Obviously if you're wearing more PvP gear your resilience will be higher and increase the chance that EfE will proc. In any case, it's certainly not something you should be getting at the cost of anything more useful, such as PoJ.

Currently i'm going with Benediction in my spec, this will probably change in a near future though - as i have found the mana you gain from having this ability is negligible. Was just having a look at possible talents for my remaining points. Imp BoM seems like what i will be going for, since i'm spending most of the time Buffing it anyway.

I know this is not exactly the right place to ask this, but i dont know anywhere besides here that people with real end-game experience will answer me.

I'm not a newbie as paladin, but im as ret. In fact im healer since 70, and now that im starting sunwell, i have little to do when not raiding. Since i dont really like to start "alt's", i'm thinking about starting a retribution gear.
I have some IRL friends that play on another guild, and i will raid Krz, SSC/TK, Mag, ZA and this others entry level raids, on weekends when my guild do not raid. ( I dont want to heal this, since im long time healer, and i heal the entire week on bt/mh and sunwell )

What im unsure about is the real efficiency of a retribution paladin.
If i expend alot of time to learn how to play as ret efficiently, will i be able to have a DPS on par with the others on this level of instances? Maybe be on par with the Shadow Priests, or MS Warriors, or other "dps/R.Buff" classes.

I have some BT/Hyjal gear:
Reliquary Mace, BT Haste Gloves (the one without sockets), Rage Dps Shoulder, Hyjal Haste Plate Belt. I also have enough Honor for 2 Vengefuls, and 200 badges. If i complete this with Krz/heroic/badge gear, will i be able to do atlast ~900 dps? Or i need too much more gear to reach that?
I have read that a full buffed, full geared pally can reach 1350. I have seem some dps classes as locks, and mages, with less them optmical party/gear reach 1600. What i can expect in DPS as a pally in each gear level?

The last question: Optimical pally rotation is: Seal of Crusader, Tank Pull, Judge seal, Seal of Blood, Crusader Strike, Judge Seal, Crusader Strike... etc... Is that right?

Thanks, and sorry to ask this in a Theorycraft post.

Check those numbers. Paladin can do 2000dps and warlock almoust 2800.
WWS Scoreboard


Edit: Try to kill brutallus without using good group synergy. Is two bloodlust on dps group so many?

I see your point there.
But this are totally stacked attemps to reach teh best dps possible, not a real Raid DPS.

They are probably using a rotation of many shamans doing BL on the party, and all kind of buffs possible.
Still paladins are the third lesser dps. (What a surprise, i would had expected lesser.)

And what about real raid experiences? Any comment?

On maxdps.com says my pally full buffed with the ret gear i have right now will have a max-dps of 677.
It seems pretty low, since i took into account, flasks and all consumibles, and also kings and might buff. (But not shout.)
Even on krz with a mix of krz, crafted and blue gear, mages and locks can do 600-900 dps. (Real DPS not Max)
Is Max DPS right? And i will do less them 677 dps? (Since i didnt take into account latency, and fight movement and other problems that may slow the dps.)

(I'm using, 2k buffed AP, 130 Weapon DPS 3.8sec, 143 Hit Rating (i know alot over the cap, but thats what i have on epic dps gear right now), 27% crit, 126 Haste, and SoB. )

Minor nitpick: Elementals can proc Eye for and Eye with their melee attacks, since they deal magical damage and can crit.

i have been palying a pally for years, but i have always been holy in the past. anyway i got into a new guild as a ret pally, since i am new ret i am still trying to work everything out. I was wondering with my gear ( The World of Warcraft Armory ) ( 1842 AP, 34 hit(way too low i know), 29.53% crit, 32 haste, and about 1100 armor pen. i am using soul cleaver ([Soul Cleaver])

Whit this gear being fully raid buffed with kings imp might, mark and 20 strength food and a 120 AP flask on, being in a group with shammy droping windfury and strengh of earth, and having a druid for 5% crit pull in group too.


What kind of dps should i be able to do. my best is 1150DPS on a boss but i dont know if that is good for my gear.
if someone could help me out that would be great thanks.

Again, please use the spreadsheet or Rawr to find out things like this. Kaubel is giving people infractions for making these kinds of posts.

Spreadsheet (Excel)
Rawr

Any ETA for the new thread Avitus/Zurm/Whoever? I have a few new things I need to add to the JoW list before you post it.

Avitus is in charge of it, I just wrote up the group comparison and I'll help him with Seal of Blood stuff.

The choices where you can put those 2 points are very limited.

Eye for an Eye is definitely useless in PvE and as much as 2/5 Benediction might not be such a great talent (especially with the "counter synergy" with Sanctified Judgement), it's still the only place where those 2 points are not completely useless.

The other options are Deflection, Toughness, Guardian's Favor, Divine Purpose, Spiritual Focus etc. the list goes on. As you can see, they're all either talents that are useless for PvE DPS or talents that are just pure PvP (which are again as you might have guessed: Useless for PvE DPS).


One point of discussion is getting 2/5 Divine Intellect, however if you do the math, you'll quickly find out that if you have no int (or very little) on your gear to begin with, those 2 talent points will be even more negligible than 2 points in Benediction.

Unfortunately, with only 2 points, none of the actually useful hybrid talents can be reached which could have offered some versatility (mainly the higher level holy talents).

In case you have a holy paladin with imp Might, then you can get 5/5 Benediction and end up with 2 points that cannot be placed anywhere really to gain a benefit, catch 22.

I believe this whole ordeal comes due to requiring us to spend 8 talent points for 3% hit. If those 3% hit only cost 3 talent points, we could actually get somewhere with 5 + 2 left over points.


I already have a rough template for some of it, but haven't had the time this week to complete a fully polished article which I'd be happy to share as a "finished product".

I'm contemplating posting what I have so far as a work in progress with the most important links and roadsigns and ironing it out as we go.

I'm not sure...Hunter's critical hits do 230% normal damage on all their attacks...For rogues and wars it is only on special attacks...shaman and wars need crit for flurry ok...

But for hunts crits are also usefull for kill command, FI, thrill of the hunt, expose weakness...

the maths need to be done ^^


edit: ok i just saw a post before in which almost all what i just said has already been said...except that a critical hit is 230% normal damage for a hunter.


Lol, in my raid, the SS charges are consumed by the lightning breath of the survival hunter's wind serpent...but except him and me, no one has noticed :')

I am 110% sure this is wrong. If you'd really like, Latito and I can bring out the math skills again to prove it, but I really don't even see how its close. Rogues aren't crit dependent, and if you look at the rogue spreadsheets crit is pretty low on importance. As mentioned above, hunters get way more out of it, plus the druid gets more out of a pure GoA group than a WF twisted group, IMO.

Difference between being in a group with EnhSham and DPSWarr and being in a group with 3 BM hunters and a restosham is about 100 personal DPS for me. I'd be interested to see the math on 5% crit for 3 BM hunters vs 2 rogues, a dps warr, and an enh sham.

I would expect it to be a dps loss for you, no UR is huge since ferals have so much AP. I'll try to get Latito in, and we'll use Rawr B13.1 as we did for the ret pally model. In fact, you could do the same thing we did with rawr; all it really takes is switching checkmarks in the buffs section... this is assuming your gear level is around ours, however.

Last week I mentioned that I had made my own spreadsheet and there was a request to post it, so here it is:

Ret dps spreadsheet

This is a very rough spreadsheet, and requires you to do all the calculations to determine your raw stats before you enter them. All the regular talents have been factored in, but no buffs or items other than windfury totem.

Also, it is only for horde paladins at the moment, and since I've been playing my alliance paladin recently, I haven't payed a lot of attention to it so there may be some places it's not up to date.
If you see anything erroneous please post a reply so I can fix it.

If you would really like to work on an accurate spreadsheet for ret paladins, you might be better off starting with Bellator's spreadsheet (of course, ask him for permission and be sure to give appropriate credit). It already has most of the up-to-date math... may require some tweaking and gear updates but from what I recall it was pretty advanced (and is probably a useful tool for all those mac people who haven't figured out how to run Rawr on their computers yet).

I made the spreadsheet before Bellator's came out, and have used it since because it isn't so 'advanced'. Since Bellator's was released I only really intended to keep using it personally, but I posted it again here because of the request.