The Ashtongue Talisman is fairly decent at lower gear levels. I used it over Bloodlust Brooch for some time, because it seemed to provide slightly more benefit, even when efficiently using the on-use ability of the Brooch with other cooldowns.

A couple of other additions might be:

Some sort of value for the T6 2 piece bonus.
A checkbox to disregard hit cap (someone also suggested expertise cap) to make it easier to plan out upgrades.

I also noticed that Draenei get the racial 1% hit automatically, but you can still add another 1% with the buff. As far as I know, two racials don't stack.

The Ashtongue Talisman should be a pretty consistent flat 30 DPS for blood elves judging every 8 seconds, and somewhat less for Alliance with Command being resistable.

If this could be done it would be handy. I had mentioned it and the WE cap earlier because it would help me look at all the gear and decide what pieces I would want to get for hit and expertise over the long run. also:

- buff - haste potion - I love these things, pretty sure I'm an addict...

The need for a 'ignore hit/exp cap' will be removed in b14, when you can use the Build Upgrades List feature to find the values of items in terms of what the best set you could build if you had them would be.

I have been going over combat logs lately and on mine, Crusader Strike consistantly has a lower crit % than any of my other attacks. I am curious as to whether anyone else has noticed this? I am also noticing that it hits less often than auto-attack and command. I am hit-capped so not talking about misses, but parry/dodge/blocks. Would that have something to do with being an instant or is it just dumb luck on both counts?

The sheer number of people posting this makes me think it isn't just dumb luck. I have the same problems with my CS miss rate and crit rate and i just attributed it to dumb luck. If you look at a total of say 20 fights on wws... you're still only looking at say a thousand crusader strikes... which isn't an entirely statistically significant sample....only time will tell i guess.

Yeah, that's the other issue of course, there will always be a far smaller sampling of CS vs. all our other mele attacks but even so... I don't have WWS logs atm, I am mostly noticing it as I track myself questing and whatnot on SWstats. However, the one or two WWS reports that I was in (hyjal and SSC) showed me the same thing. Very low crit % on CS.

There have been similar questions about lack of crits in other threads lately to, the BM hunter thread, dps warrior, warlock etc. A few weeks ago I mentioned it but I haven't bothered to do any math of significance.

Woot

Just did brutallus and managed to pull 2156 DPS
No special treatment, no lucky critrate, just one bloodlust and no stacked group (Oh and i'm australian so i play with 350ms :P)

Group comp was (Rogue Rogue MS warrior Enhance Sham)
Demonslaying (though i forgot to reapply the elixir during the last 30 seconds ><) + Mageblood
Shammy that twists GoA and WF (<3 Joystick)
Haste pots

Link to the WWS - Wow Web Stats

Finally another bloodelf up there!

Impressive!

This is more in line with (or actually almost exactly) what I expected (or rather Rawr calculated) the discrepancy between SoC and SoB will be at that gear level.

Get expertise capped and you'll be bordering on op (you had 5 dodges, 1 parry).


Well done indeed

Edit: Also nice hunter dps, 2.5k!

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but I've just stumbled across the power of "Seal Twisting"!

Similar to the concept of Totem Twisting, using WF and Agility totems simulataneously, it seems possible to use 2 Seals at one time. If I can find a way to weave this into a PVE DPS cycle, this could be potentially amazing.

The idea is, to use Seal of Command, and just before your White Swing lands, to hit Seal of Blood.

Upon doing this, I'm getting my White Swing, a SoC proc, and TWO SoB procs! (I'm guessing SoC procs a further SoB.)

Obviously timing is a problem, but this seems like it could be a viable DPS technique.

Don't have much time this morning, but I've uploaded a quick video of this to Filefront:

Seal_Twist.avi - FileFront.com

=)

It has been mentioned several times before. Even if it's handy in pvp, I doubt you could twist on any pve fights without encountering massive mana issues. And even worse issues with GCD and CS.

Well you can of course use R1 Seal of Command for this, which is only 50 mana. Poetntially using it every 3rd swing or something, when CS is on cooldown could be an option, or maybe even weaving it around your Judgements.

White Swing ---> Judgement ----> SoC R1--------> SoB -> White Swing -----> .....continue as usual.

I have the Shard of Contempt, what I was looking for via the RAWR was if the Ashtongue Talisman was worth picking up and would it replace my second trinket the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

I read back some 100 pages that the Ashtongue Talisman scales with Vengeance, Sanctity Aura, and Crusade along with other debuffs like Misery from Shadow Priest bringing this trinket up to around 37 dps.

What I couldn’t find was solid information on how much dps trinkets like Berserker’s Call and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade added to our over all dps.

So I tried to figure it out on my own.

I know:
14 AP = 1dps

Avitus said:
Berserker's Call averages out at 150 AP passive.

Berserker’s Call: 150 AP = 10.71 dps
DC:C = 120 AP = 8.57 dps

Now I know our special attacks add to the over all dps these trinkets add so doing some more searching I found:

Darkmoon Card: Crusade over all dps around 28.00
Berserker’s Call over all dps around 27.00

I am not sure if these numbers are 100% correct, which is why I am asking if someone can double check to make sure I am not going crazy. If these numbers are close to being correct then wouldn’t the Shard of Contempt + Ashtongue Talisman be the two best trinkets we can get?

Actual damage increases from AP is determined by dividing by 14 and multiplying by either the weapon speed (white swings or unnormalized attacks) or 3.3 (normalized specials).

With a 3.8 speed weapon 150 AP is thus worth roughly 41 damage on a white swing and unnormalized attack (white attacks and Windfury attacks) and 35 damage on normalized attacks (Crusader Strike; however since CS is 110% of weapon damage it is actually about 38 more damage). Seal of Blood is also 10% of your unnormalized (I think) weapon damage, so it will increase by 4.

Assuming you swing every 3.8 seconds you're looking at 10.7 more DPS on white swings, 6.3 more DPS on CS, and a little over 1 more DPS for SoB. Pretending that crits and Windfury don't exist give you a baseline of about 18 DPS from Zerker's Call (A quick note about this: crits raise the value of Attack Power much higher and if you use the trinket during your AW cycle it is actually worth much more than 150 passive AP).

Running the numbers quickly for the Ashtongue trinket with all the percentage modifiers (Vengeance x3, Crusader, Sanctity aura, Improved Sanctity Aura, Misery) and assuming a perfect proc rate of 50% it will be about 42 DPS.

Someone else will have to run it with crits (I am running extremely late) to find the exact comparison. It is worth pointing out however that the Ashtongue trinket does eat a debuff slot, so depending on your raid composition it might not be worth very much at all.

Bellator's spreadsheet has been worked on for months, gradually refining it and improving it all the time. Do you really think you can beat that with a "very basic formula"? Feel free to reverse engineer all the stuff from the excel file though, everything you need is there.

Minor nitpick: [Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal] (from now on called ATZ) "gains" from those buffs, but does not "scale" with gear at all.

It's important to make this distinction, because that's what it all boils down to in the end.

37 DPS sounds about right, but remember this is what it will do if you're naked, or if you're wearing full T6+


Now to compare:


Rawr - Home ? Under Comparisons, Slot, choose trinket 1 or trinket 2 from the drop down.

In my current gear/buffs/rotation Berserker's Call gives me ~42.68 DPS, DMC:C ~61.92 DPS (though I don't use either anymore).

In my target gear BC would give ~44.41 DPS and DMC:C ~63.42 DPS.

As you can see they scale. If you choose T5 or T4 level gear and less raid buffs, they should give a lot less.

While it might be possible that at some very low gear level (we're talking greens and blues here) or complete lack of buffs/party synergy, those trinkets do less than 37DPS and ATZ would be superior in that case, but as I said this is very unlikely and not a realistic scenario to consider.


Depending on what potions you use the best combo is Shard of Contempt + Dragon Spine Trophy or Shard of Contempt and DMC:C.

Ah okay thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Looking over my gear fully raid buff…

SoC - 60.68
DST - 49.02
DC:C – 42.59
ATZ - 42
Zerk Call – 36.30

So it appears unless I can get my hands on a DST, I am set on my trinkets for now.

I never really looked before but last night I also noticed that CS was hitting about 20% crit. But my melee crit stat is about 33%. Frustrating. Perhaps there is more to this than random luck? Have I overlooked something?

You guys pushing 2k on Brutallus amaze me. If I get 1800 it's a good try. Granted I dun have a better weapon or a decent weapon chant (Mongoose) but still.

Sometimes RNG just screws you over
I don't think theres any reason in particular that you should be critting less on just CS, is your white crit rate as low as CS? Or is it just CS that has the low crit rate?
I've had instances where my WWS shows that my avg. crit for attacks are easily 10-15% higher than my character screen lists, and I've had times where out of ~250 attacks I crit about..10 of them with a 30% crit rate

Its simply just the games way of saying
Lucky: You aren't.

Has this low crit rate been consistent for a while now or was it just last night? Everyone has bad luck streaks one time or another

It great to see pallys with those kind of numbers but i just dont understand what im missing to get those: /

Am I just not managing abilities and c/ds effectively? Seems like my gear should be able to pull more than I’m getting

A few thoughts I had were to switch out DM:C for BC and use that AW and a haste pot then go fel mana after that here is a link to our first brut kill 1750 dps not bad I guess but I want more our shammy is TT and we had 4 drummers. I have torch didn’t use it for that kill but I guess ill try using it for this week. I’m just not sure what else I can do : /

Any thoughts would be great.