Two quick points:-

1) Maths wise. (apologies if this seems patronising, it's not intended)

Lets assume AP is 0 and Haste Rating is 0.
In terms of itemisation 2 AP = 1 Haste rating.

So if we increase AP by 2 we see 0.5 dps increase. and increasing Haste rating by 1 will see 0.1 dps increase. Thus you would go for 2 AP.

However, now we are at 2AP and 0H. Another 2 AP will give 0.5 dps increase, but 1 Haste rating will show a 0.2 dps increase. Again we take the AP

Continuing to increase AP keeps the dps gain from additional AP the same but increases the dps gain from Haste until the point when we are at for example 10 AP and 0 Haste where 2 more AP will increase dps by 0.5 but 1 Haste will increase dps by 0.6, so we get the 1 haste

Increasing the value of haste increases the dps contribution of AP, so then we keep taking AP until haste is again the better option, then we take haste, then more AP etc etc.

The numbers are of course all make believe, but iy gives you the gist maths wise.


2) Whilst in this instance i would agree that grips of silent justice (akama gloves) are better than pillagers, don't avoid items simply because they have haste. A poorly itemised item with strength as the primary stat can still be worse than a well itemised item with haste as the primary stat.

In terms of testing proc based enchants on low level mobs, it's far better just to use white attacks than spam instants as well. The reason being if we can work out the base auto-attack ppp, it is then quite simple to calculate effective ppm against raid bosses. If you get a ppm using white and CS you first have to calculate what the base ppm was and then work out the effective ppm against bosses.

I don't believe SoC/SoR can make proc based enchants proc.

I can confirm SoC and JoC proc mongoose.

SoC should have the ability to proc weapon enchants. (It's a tad hard to test, but I recall seeing screenshots of double fiery procs to prove it)


SoR was changed to not proc enchants a patch or two ago. (see patch notes)

SoR used to get double procs from the Hakkari Manslayer (instant drain life), but if it does now, that'd be a bug. (I also put that AoE fire enchant from Badlands on the Manslayer - was rather amusing to see lotsa little numbers and to break sheep)

From what i've read on mongoose the following appear to be true:-

A) Mongoose has a base proc rate from auto attack of about 1ppm
B) Proc % of Mongoose is based on hasted speed so that the ppm from autoattacks stay at 1ppm.
C) Mongoose can proc from SoC/JoC/Cs/(WF?)

Modelling it into my ret-model shows two things:-

1) Mongoose is probably better than savegry

and quite shockingly,

2) Haste rating has a negative effect on Mongoose.

To elaborate on 1, the proc chance of mongoose is calculated by 1/(60/Weapon Speed). After all other attacks that can proc mongoose, with tier 5ish gear against level 73 mob, this will in effect produce about 2.4ppm. The average effect would thus increase dps more than savegery (will try to include it in next version of spreadsheet)

To elaborate on 2, the proc rate decreases as haste increases. Since haste increases number of autoattacks then in terms of autoattacking, the ppm is the same. But since SoC/JoC/Cs are not effected by haste by lowering the proc rate of mongoose lowers the number of procs from these abilities. Thus haste actually decreases the dps gain from mongoose. Will make sure to model this as well.

If we assume that CS/JoC/SoC use the hasted proc rate instead of the unhasted proc rate.


Didn't a rogue in the PPM thread test that ... ?

While we are on the subject of PPM. I would really like to get the base PPM of the following nailed down for the model:-

Dragonspine Trophy
Madness of the Betrayer
Band of the Eternal Champion
World Breaker

I plan to model all of these as 1ppm with chance to proc off SoC/JoC/CS/WF

Any information to get more accurate figures would be appreciated

Just don't forget the cooldowns on those trinkets.

I do those trinkets definately have hidden cooldowns? And if so what are they? I know Tsunami Talisman has a hidden cooldown but i wasnt aware of cooldowns on those two

I'm not sure about those specific trinkets but almost any trinket I actually did look at had a cooldown, and most of them (with any significant proc) had 45s cooldown. Worth testing, but if you just want to put them in until you get more data I would guess 45s cooldown after a proc.

I found this thread:-

Procs with/without internal cooldowns

Will use the info in there for modelling purposes

1 picture tells more than thousand words?

Am I reading that right? It looks like Blood didn't have a miss % chance, meaning its based of melee hit? Or am I crazy?

No you are not crazy, it is indeed melee hit based, unlike our very own talent in DPS tree that is spell hit based.

Seal of Sacrifice please.

That's seriously quite obscene. Including the windfury interaction and straight-up more damage from the seal effect, what does that put Blood at now? 10-15% more damage than command, straight up?

I just finished almost an hour of testing:

With a larger pool size, I'd estimate around 15% proc chance (which is significantly higher than the 6% it was when I first got over 5,000 swings on 2.2 PTR ).
With a 15% change to proc, it's about equal to 135 crit rating.
The thing about World Breaker proc is you get a flat 900 crit rating added to your character sheet, so any attacks within the period of Gaining and Losing the proc get the added chance to crit. Having SoC/White/CS/JoCom all crit with Avenging Wrath up is pretty sexy.

Are you saying that the 4 second buff doesnt fade on next attack, and that any attack made in 4 seconds will have 900 crit?

Also was this just from white attacks or were you using SoC/JoC/CS to get procs etc?

I'm not even sure if it's hit based, I'm not hit capped by ~4% and I'm almost certain I'm yet to see a SoB judgement 'miss'. It's great For Leo after a WW or demon ~> human form.

To see those numbers will make 2.3 Ret interesting, I'm sorry that alliance are kinda boned atm atleast, but hopefully blizz will notice this and give SoC the love it needs.

Edit: Actually knowing them, they'll likely just screw SoB up.

Seeing as SoB isn't a proc rate, but a constant % of weapon damage it is completely indipendant of weapon speed in terms of it's benefit (as in no normalization) so, I would imagine the faster you swing the more DPS you'll be doing in relation to SoB.

It's only for one attack. I had a big WWS sample but it dissapeared cause I don't have an account.

The buff lasts 4 seconds and fades after you attack.

I know Seal of Blood is better than SoC, but is the damage of SoB a burden to healers?

Already there is a lot of splash damage, plus Warlocks need to Life Tap in order to deal damage, so I don't know if one extra healing burden is all that great.

Not at all. It's really minimal and if light is judged on the mob you can barley tell your hp is going down. If you bring resto shaman you will get hit with a CH jump here and there and that alone will cover it.