Agusta

Hi, I've been reading here for some time now even if I'm not (yet ?) a ret paladin but as you were talking about the benediction, I enter de debate.

I was wondering on the good benediction combinaison and what I read confirm my doubts.

With the proposition from Fadaar (retribution paladin doing Might / Wisdom, Pally#3), all the mana user won't have the Improved Wisdom. Honneslty, that's not really good. But, the other possibilities don't please me either :
- If the ret do the job of Pally #1 (always from the exemple above) : he needs a 5/11/45 template, what shoud that be ?
- If the ret do the job of Pally #2 (always from the exemple above) : why bother with Improved Might and what to do with the points then.

So right now, I'm gathering stuff were I can, (Hyjal / BT / heroic / crafts ...) but I'm also thinking about templates and role in the raid. At this point, this optimisation of both benediction and template is the main problem in my reflexion.

I may have missed something of importance (or maybe a small one), so please, can you tell me if I waiste my time on this ?

 

• Zurm

It's really not hard for a holy paladin to get Imp BoM, in fact if the ret pally needs precision I'd argue its harder for them to get it than the holy paladin.

 

Kuthumii

I am leveling my paladin right now and am looking around for good guides on prot and ret to help me learn the class.

I was talking with a friend and he said down ranking SoC is better than using max rank. From the charts on the first page, my understanding of them at least, it shows that you lower your dps by doing this. The field for 'Benefit' has a (+) while the benefit field for rank 6 has a (-). Does this mean it is good or bad to down rank. (Please forgive my lack of knowledge)

 

Gevlin

I usually end up setting up buffs for the raid, and this is how it usually works to get the best of both worlds of imp might/wis.

Pally #1) Imp Might/Salv/Light (i'll do light on pallies, single might myself)
Pally #2) Imp Wisdom/Salv/Light
Pally #3) Kings

Its not all that complex and if everyone is using Pally Power, there is nothing to explain. you could teach a monkey to buff with that mod.

 

Agusta

Alrigth, so you use a combination a bit more complex than the standard on (with only Holy Paladins)

About Holy paladin blessing Imp. Migth, thats what we do. As you said, it's pretty easy to get. We have all our paladin having it exept 2, to be sure to always have one paladin who can bless it. (wow, not sure this is clear but I'm late for raiding :P)

And yep, PP helps a lot for dispathing benediction.

 

• Avitus

I know it's all damage, however the FI currently in Rawr is only working for physical = wrong implementation.

It says "3% physical dmg" when you hover over it. It does not increase SoC/JoC/SoB/JoB/Consecration/Exorcism damage currently.

Check it out, I'm sure there's confusion somewhere.

 

• Astrylian

Ahhh, OK, I gotcha. Will get that fixed for b14.1. Thanks.

 

• Avitus

Emphasis mine. This is actually "very" interesting that you write that, here's why:

If you go back a few pages, before doing any calculations, before we were even trying to find a theory, simply based on observation, A bunch of us had said that after going over so many endgame ret WWS logs it seems weird that SoC proc rate seems to be so high. Just by feel (no calculations done) I threw out that number "8.5ppm" which seems to be the average most people have.


Now you've reached almost the same number (8.4) which we previously reached by observation through calculation. I guess this is proof pretty much that this has to be correct.


Regarding haste: The 8.5 number experienced through observation seemed to come from many different logs wearing a lot of different gear.

I have 124 passive haste rating on my gear, putting in 1x bloodlust, haste pots, DST, and a full Drums of Battle rotation, I have the equivalent average of around 348.56 haste rating (according to Rawr). I've had the same ~8.4ppm in the tries where I had 2 bloodlusts (heroisms),

I'm pretty sure others have different amounts. This is again another point against SoC off base speed (and rather the increase of ppm coming from WF chain procs and proccing off hasted weapon speed). Think it's pretty clear now where we're at


7% haste is 110.32 rating.

105 rating = 6.6624365482233502538071065989848% haste

 

noth

We go:

Pally 1 (prot) kings - he tanks, so we don't make him do 10-mins, 'cuz they just wouldn't get done.
Pally 2 (holy with both imp blessings) wis/might - he 10-min mights myself & the enhance shammie if we don't have a 4th.
Pally 3 (me) - salvs, overwrie the tanks salvs with something appropriate, wis the hunters
Pally 4 (a spare holy if we're carrying one that night) light - 30 min might on pally, shaman, druid.

Picking up imp might as holy isn't that big a deal, and the intersection of folks who need wis & might is low, which reduces the 10-min buffing. YMMV, and Pally Power is a god-send.

I dropped down to 3 in benediction lately, and I'm not feeling like it's hurting me terribly much. Having full imp might means that I can do the hunter might & let the holy guy do wis & the hunters get both imp buffs, which is nice.

 

Paragos

I still believe both Windfury and SoC can only happen once per normal swing, excluding the random weird windfury proccing windfury bug.

By that theroy, I calculate the proc rate on SoC should average about 7.83ppm with a 3.5 speed attack. It fluctuates very slightly with haste gear. A 2.5 speed attack rate gives 7.9ppm.

I believe all the questionable 8.5ppm were posted by people asking why it was so high. I haven't gone back to check whether this is true. It could very well be a lucky night. Were most of those Brut fights? 6 minutes.

Here is Teron for me last night. WWS Teron
Windfury 36% proc rate
SoC 4'24 second fight, 29 procs or 6.59ppm.
Character sheet said 40.92% crit chance.
SoC crite rate was 20%.

I know some people were questioning CS crit rate a few pages back, but I went and checked my logs and they generally matched for a full raid.

Bad RNG or Good RNG or just RNG?

 

Orodlin

Hey guys long time reader, i just saw this on mmo-champion and Im wondering how this affects everyones rotations, and what this means for mana conservation etc.

This is under the 2.4.2 notes on the site


Seal of the Crusader: This ability now increases the damage dealt by Crusader Strike by 40%.
Personally, my rotation is sketchy as is, with at some points i have some down time, but at others im stretched pretty close on my global cool downs. Unless Im getting wisdom as well as having the seal up, im chain drinking mana potions and still burning through my mana. So how will this extra seal up time affect our dps, will we have to swing, seal*crusader*, CS, Seal*blood/Command* then judge? Im just not sure how this will play out regarding global cool-downs and mana efficiency because 40% CS damage is a stupid increase, but how is it going to affect the rotation timer and our need for intelligence in our gear? any input would help to put me at ease.

Edit confirmed it on the PTR patch notes site
WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

 

antilog

Don't do it. It's a tarp. I believe it was confirmed a few pages back that there is no actual 40% crusader strike damage increase and that it was just making crusader strike do the amount of damage it is supposed to.

Edit: I'm wondering where I can find a site that has boss information reguarding armor? I was looking at wowwiki and didn't see anything. Where else should I look?

 

flyingtoastr

[RAID] Boss armor values, post 8 has most of it.

It might be a good idea to put this on WoWwiki. I can do it later tonight.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Kuthumii

Anyone mind helping me with that? Or maybe a page number in this post that it is on?

 

• Zurm

It is more dps to use max Rank SoC... but the judgement is so weak that if you do have mana issues you can probably afford to downrank. Have to double check with one of the alliance posters, but thats the quick answer from a semi-informed blood elf.

 

thedopefishlives

From my understanding and from playing with bellator's spreadsheet, the proc from SoC is the same across all ranks - that is, it's always 70% weapon damage. Downranking SoC will cost you dps from the judgment. Depending on how big of a percentage that dps is, I'd imagine for better-geared paladins it wouldn't be such an issue.

 

• Zurm

It's not, but its still a dps loss to some degree. How much isn't my point.

 

• frmorrison

The "best" build for a PvE Holy Pally is 42/14/5, getting all imp Blessings and 6% less damage taken.


Since you get 80% mana back using max rank SoC vs rank 1 SoC, it is only about 40-50 more mana to use max rank. The first page was the 50% mana back number.

Although that will add up over time, I am pretty sure it is better to drop Consecrate over using rank 1 SoC.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Durandal

Thoughts on this dps cycle?

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...stingseals.jpg

I used the spread sheet cycle from post #1 but the speed of the weapon is only 3.0?

 

Petersen

Okey, so I retested a little, and my results are much the same.

My original goal was to see what all this new SotC business was really about first hand, so I went to the Deeprun Tram to try out a few things. I didn't get very far without incident.

Using gear and spec: 70 Human Paladin

No helm so no meta gem contamination.
No gloves for no 5% CS damage.
One handed weapon to reduce skewing from 2-handed weapon specialization.
Level 1 weapon used to reduce the range of possible damage values.

Target: Deeprun Rats



First I verified my unbuffed white swing damage at 229-232. (Macro got rid of Disdain and Vengeance procs between rats)

Next I tried to verify my unbuffed CS damage, but found my range at 233-235 (this is seriously irritating to test, from what I can tell, the CS is the 'first' attack the system processes when you attack from non-combat with a Crusader Strike, and even if this kills the target it also processes a white attack, but the white attack shows up first in the combat log (though if the white attack crits, the vengeance does not seem to apply to the CS, but if the CS crits, vengeance does seem to apply to the white attack). In any case, if either one crits I'm not comfortable using that CS data and with an experimental crit rate of around 40% on these things...)


Theoretically, with a white damage range of 229-232, my CD range should be 251.9-255.2. Can anyone explain why my results are showing CS doing such low bonus damage? I suspect it may have something to do with the level 1 sword I'm using.



EDIT: I just remembered CS is an instant attack and therefore normalized, this may well be the cause of the variance.


EDIT 2: Indeed, the normalization was the uncounted variable, the cause of the discrepancy. With a 2.4 speed weapon results are as predicted.

¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.

 

Quepaso

I was doing some brief testing, and here's what i found:

on average, with Seal of Crusader up i was hitting for (roughly) 200 more dmg w/ crusader strike

on average, with Seal of Crusader up i was hitting for (roughly) 500 more dmg critical w/ crusader strike

This was done self buffed, S3 gloves on for extra crusader strike dmg. Need to plug into spreadsheet to find out how this will run over time compared to Seal of Command. At first glance i was a bit dissapointed, but we'll see.

 

Astinus

We have just 3 paladins on our raids. Tank, Ret, Holy.

The Holy and Tank both have kings. The holy has Imp Wis but no Imp Might. I have taken imp might because of this. The tanking paladin wants BoSanc so he cant kings the paladin group. I cant figure out how to get the paladins Imp Blessing of Wis.

We generally do it like this.
Tank Pally - Salvation - he 10 min BoSanc's himself.
Ret Pally - Wisdom - I 10min salvation myself.
Holy Pally - Kings

The only way for me to figure out how we can get imp wisdoms in the paladin group is for me to pick up kings. I can get the imp wisdom on just the holy paladin if we do it like this.

Tank Pally - Kings- he 10 min BoSanc's himself.
Ret Pally - Might - I 10 min wisdom the tank.
Holy Pally - Wisdom - He 10m salv to ret, 10 min kings to tank.

Otherwise I just cant figure out how to get imp wisdom on both the tank and holy paladin when the tank wants to use BoSanc.

 

Cathmor

My raids sometimes run 3 paladins as well. The Holy paladin usually has Imp. Wisdom and I'm the ret with Imp. Might. So I'm in a similar situation.

I'm usually the pallypower dude, so we just say "eff it" and have the following PP setup for paladins:
Prot paladin - Salv on paladins, 10 min Sanc on self
Ret paladin - Wisdom on paladins, 10 min Might on self
Holy paladin - Kings on paladins

With that setup, your Prot paladin will be sporting Sanctuary, Wisdom, and Kings; Ret paladin will have Might, Salv and Kings; Holy paladin will have Salv, Wisdom, and Kings. It's simplest and easiest, and I think the Prot and the Holy losing 9 mp5 each is worth 2 less 10 minute assignments.

I am the light that brings the dawn.
http://e4ae.blogspot.com/
-Cathmor of Malfurion
formerly Baelor of Runetotem

 

• Avitus

I really don't see the issue with all the buffing discussion. With PallyPower setting tailored buffs for your raid is a no-brainer?

 

noth

You'd think so, but with all the off-specs, it's still a chore. :shrug: It's more of a discussion of who has to spec imp might/wis/kings I think. For what it's worth, our prot pally hasn't asked to be given sanct yet, and my holy one loves me enough to spec imp might, so we have some flexibility.