flyingtoastr

I've tried numerous times to get our set bonus looked at by the devs, but after having the topic continually deleted and getting banned for reposting it by Hortus I sorta gave up. I think my sig still has a link to the original topic though.

Vengeance is a waste of mana (fancy that) and possible SoC procs. It doesn't scale with anything either. In a perfect situation rolling 5 stacks is worth about 70-80 DPS, but when you count resists, mana consumption (you can't downrank SoV like SoC) and lost SoC swings it really isn't worth it.

The reason Seal Twisting works for Blood Elves is because SoB is always going to proc. SoV, as another wonderful PPM that uses SPELL HIT (come on Blizzard, throw me a bone here) just isn't reliable enough to use.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Rasputin

I also wonder what weapon would end up being best, SoB or SoC weapons. I think I'll go find a blasted lands mob to practice this on in any case.

 

Merple

According to external sources, seal twisting works like this:

1. put on seal of command

2. right as your swing animation happens (normal, socomm proc, or crit) swap seals to SoJ(PvP) or SoB(PvE)

 

Covertghost

Basically my rotation was as such:

Autoattack with SoC up

if:
A) SoC procs
B) crusader strike is near on CD
C) Judgement is near on cooldown

Switch to SoB as soon as the attack goes off, this will either grant you extra blood procs (soc + windfury + JoW etc.)

Or will get you back into your normal rotation of blood judging + CS'ing.

Only judge blood since it'll do more damage than R1 SoC and will give you an extra hit with white hit while you're refreshing CS.

Fit in exorcism/consecration when able (though it's not often).

There seems to be a lot of benefits to seal twisting, one large benefit is no mana problem whatsoever (you can't fit consecration 100% into your rotation) and it seems to do more damage than focusing on exo/consec/cs/judges.

SoC weapons would techinically work better as you'd have more SoC procs per autoswing thus negating the missed SoC proc. However, it could be said that if you get your haste high enough with drums + lust you'd be able to switch to Blood and cover 2 full auto attacks with extra procs with it.

 

Merple

Just to clarify you switch for any of the above, or all?

 

Covertghost

Any usually, still trying to get a concrete rotation going.

But thus far that's what I've learned produces highest DPS.

I could see alliance doing it with SoR (you don't want another PPM BS spell like SoV when you're trying to twist, you want a guaranteed hit).

Of course it'll be a bit subpar to the horde one (SoR relying on spell damage vs. SoB relying on melee stats)

 

Rasputin

Do you still judge and CS over twisting, or do you ensure SoC is up and your GCD is ready for the switch for each white hit? It seems like without ignoring twist opportunities you rarely get a chance to CS.

 

Nerub

I'm raidleader of a guild who cleared t5 recently and is now approaching Hyjal (Archimonde) and Temple (Teron and above). Duo to the enormous lack of enhancement shamans in general (we have one, but two is always better) on our small server I'm considering looking for a retribution paladin now. Is anyone here who can provide a WWS with a retribution paladin in the aforementioned stage of progression? I'd like to know what I can (and should) expect when giving a retripaladin a try.

Any help is appreciated.

 

Merple

Well, consider that you can really only twist once per judgement cooldown. So you wait for the first socomm proc, and then continue judging as normal.

 

Covertghost

My CS is usally a second or so late (cap expertise gives you a little bit of leeway on missing CS'), as the twisting damage will be more than the CS would have been. It's sometimes inevitable that they overlap.

However, next raid I'm going to test completely prioritizing CS and how viable it is. Usually you're stuck on globals or you'll risk autoattacking with no seal at all if you try to CS every single CD on the second.

 

Exemplar

Prioritizing twisting over CS - any issues keeping Judgements up? Losing Wisdom would make the raid unhappy. I think you answered while typing, you don't miss any rotations of CS, just delay them by 1-2 seconds, right?

Also, someone care to number crunch twisting Righteousness for Alliance? Better to keep with the Exor/Cons, since Righteousness doesn't scale with weapon damage?

 

Covertghost

Yeah, judgements never dropped (I run cap expertise now, was missing belt on brut but judgements still remained).

You aren't missing a full rotation or anything, just 1-2s on CS as you try to make time between a white swing and reseal to CS.

 

• frmorrison

Since Righteousness scales with spell damage, and the Judgment scales with spell crit/hit, I don't think it is a good idea. Maybe for soloing though.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Eathir

Been looking over what sort of DPS you guys push in fights from the various WWS logs that's been linked, and, looking and comparing to what i end up doing in MH/BT at the moment (guild entered T6 dungeons about 3 weeks ago, so only on RoS and Archimonde atm) and i find myself at about 100 - 150 DPS short of what RAWR estimates me to be with the buff's im reciviing, but this is without conc (rank4 usually)/excorcism on RAWR, which i use as close to cooldown as can be managed. I'm raidleading so a bit of the focus is taken away from my personal performance for raid coordination, aswell as swapping in shamans into the pure dps groups for heroisms. Basicly im wondering if there is something im missing that i could improve upon, atm im prioritizing CS on cooldown, judging SoC after that, conc and finally excorcism in that order. Should that order be swapped around? Group generally consists of 2xrogue, arms warrior, enh shaman and retri pally, if the warrior aint avaibible a third rogue is brought in to benefit from the group buffing. Example fight: Wow Web Stats

Current armory is with pvp spec and pvp gear for the weekend as we dont raid friday/saturday and im trying to get the arena points for S3/S4 gloves soon but im hit capped and using a shard of contempt which is my only source of expertise at this point.

 

Fiola

It occurred to me that I forgot to pay attention to an alternative SoC + WF model. SoC procs WF, WF does not proc SoC, and SoC scales with haste.

Chain proc model expects SoC to get 7 * 1.2 = 8.4 PPM.

This 3rd model expects SoC to get 7 * (1 + Haste%) PPM.


Looking back at one of the previously posted WWS:
Saltycracker - WWS - 1995 DPS
134 swings, 43 SoC procs (31.4%/42.2%), 32 WF procs (31.4%/22%)

WWS 1 has 102 swings over 5:19 minutes with a 3.5 AS weapon. The effective AS is 3.14, giving us 3.5/3.14 = 112% haste.

5.33 minutes * 7 PPM = 37.3 SoC procs expected.
37.3 * 112% = 42 procs expected under Model 3.
5.33 * 8.4 PPM = 44.8 procs expected under Chain proc model.

Actual proc # = 43.


Or take your 8.5 PPM number: 348.56 haste rating / 15.8 = 22% haste. You experienced 8.5 PPM. 8.5 / 7 = 1.21 - 21% more SoC procs than expected. WF giving you a 20% bonus? Or haste giving you a 22% bonus?


The real test of our understanding is when when SoC paladins start hitting 30% effective haste. If SoC is scaling with haste, you will see up to 9~10 PPM, whereas the chain proc model predicts no scaling - just a static 8.4 PPM regardless of gear.

 

CountZero

Here is the Guild URL to our Webstats:
Wow Web Stats

We haven't killed Archimonde nor Teron.

 

Valerys

I usually have trouble actually seeing my swing animations in raids (all those fat tauren standing around me ). I do have the Quartz swing timer, at which point should I be swapping to SoB? Just before the timer reaches the end, or just after?

 

dr303

I have a question regarding gear and enchantments.

Yesterday the World Breaker dropped for me and i've heard that it's a pretty decent paladin weapon.
Before it dropped I was thinking of getting the Blade of Harbingers but now i'm not so sure it will be all
that big of upgrade. Could I get guidance in this please .

Second question is, what type of enchants
should I put on the weapon. I've heard lots of different opinions, take executioner, take mongoose etc.

Can anyone please help me with these questions.

Thanks.

 

Agusta

It seems that Mongoose is choosed by most Retribution Paladin.

 

• Avitus

The easiest way to test this is a long blasted lands test with only SoC and a lot of haste gear. I think it was already somewhat confirmed way back that SoC does not scale with haste and its proc chance is always calculated off the hasted speed (and therefore has a constant ppm)?

 

Meuble

Your last post is getting me confused Avitus. Where you not the one that agreed with Fiola to say SoC "worked" with haste, seeing it's ppm increased? (up to 8.5 for most ally raiders?)

And Barrelroll, very nice dps for seal twisting, I would never have thought this to actually work on a boss. Did you use a maccro of some sort to achieve perfect timing on SoC / SoB rotation?
And something's strange on that report of yours. I would have expect to see less SoB than SoC + white hits, because of timing errors, but...
Barrelroll - WWS
82 white hits + 74 crits = 156
+ 15 SoC hits + 10 crits = 181

193 SoB hits + 55 crits = 248

How is this possible? Unless I'm just missreading wws again (to get total number of hits, you have to manually add hit and crit... unless it has been fixed?), what could it mean?

If we add CS, we get a total of 231 hits for 248 SoB procs, wich sounds more likely... But CS can't proc seals. So, what the hell? SoB procs off WF? Or all those simultaneous hits led to strange selfprocs? Or.. whatever. I don't get it. I hope I just missread that wws.


edit: fixed typos.

 

• Zurm

When you seal twist, SoB procs off SoC.

 

Meuble

Well, yes... so
82 white hits + 74 crits = 156 is 156 SoB procs...
then, you add
+ 15 SoC hits + 10 crits = 181 for a theorical total of 181 SoB procs.

You might have missed the "+" sign. There's a total of 25 SoC procs in his report, 15 hits, 10 crit. So white hit + 25 should be equal to the total of SoB procs. It's not. So, there's something wrong.

 

yamamoto

Jusr clarifying here. You basically go into the fight, swing with SoC up as the animation occurs you switch to SoB + CS + SoComm wait again SoB on swing (guesing Judge here since 6 sec shouldnt be up) and repeat?

Your A B C, is a bit confusing. Are you saying you KEEP SoC up (meaning not switch to SoB on animation) with those conditions? Thanks for the input

 

orkyben

I guess WWS takes the Seal of Blood self-damage as an additional attack, as it does in the combat log.

When you succesfully pull off a "Seal Twist" however, you will experience a White Swing, a SoC Proc, and TWO x SoB Procs. I imagine the second SoB procs from the SoC.

Going by the 15 SoC hits and 10 crits, that would indicate that Barrelroll pulled off 25 successful "Twists" during this fight, gaining 25 additional SoB procs at the same time.

WWS also shows the "Seal of Command" buff was obtained 54 times, I gather that would mean he attempted to Twist on 54 occassions, approximately 1 in 3 swings, which seems more than viable. Of 54 attempts, 25 successes or a 46.3% - which would almost mirror the SoC Proc Rate with a 3.8 speed Weapon, just 2% out.