I am not 100% sure if I get this seal-twisting thing, but basically what you do is use r1 SoC, and when you see the procc animation you switch to SoB for a SoB procc on the SoC procc?
Pretty much. I swap Seals around .1 or .2 on my swing timer and that usually works. The only problem (well, the problem I'm having) is when trying to fit Judgement, CS, and the occasional Consecrate.
My 1st attempt and raid seal twisting was during Brutallus the other night. It felt really... awkward.
Would seal twisting make [Libram of Divine Judgement] a better choice over [Libram of Avengement]? I'm considering trying out seal twisting tonight on Illidari Council since it seems like a pretty good fight for it seeing as there is no exorcism usage and I rarely drop consecrate to limit confusion. The only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of going out of mana since it is such a long fight and I tend to chain haste potions. Has anyone had experience trying it out on that fight (or Illidan for that matter), or are there any suggestions of a better fight to play with it on?
Has anyone had any luck on finding an effective twist rotation to get Rank 1 SoCr worked in before your Crusader Strikes. It has a 1.5 GCD on the seal cast so seems like the challenge is how to get Seal of Command back up quick enough so that you don't miss the SoCommand Procs after you cast the SoCr and then Crusader Strike.
Short Answer: Rank 1 Seal of the Crusader gives 40 attack power, there is no reason whatsoever to be using it.
Long Answer: Seal of the Crusader reduces your weapon damage by roughly 40% while it is active to maintain equal DPS. A bug with CS was discovered where it would take the new, lower weapon damage if you had SotC up, reducing the damage of CS by about 40%. The "increases the damage of CS by 40%" was simply to balance the bug, not to buff CS damage. The only additional damage you gain from SotC is the AP it gives you. Twisting SotC is useless.
Would seal twisting make [Libram of Divine Judgement] a better choice over [Libram of Avengement]? I'm considering trying out seal twisting tonight on Illidari Council since it seems like a pretty good fight for it seeing as there is no exorcism usage and I rarely drop consecrate to limit confusion. The only thing I'm concerned about is the possibility of going out of mana since it is such a long fight and I tend to chain haste potions. Has anyone had experience trying it out on that fight (or Illidan for that matter), or are there any suggestions of a better fight to play with it on?
With seal twisting, at least as I see it, you shouldn't be doing Judgement of Command. If you could, then you could simple add an equip line to your seal macros and get to use both anyway.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
With seal twisting, at least as I see it, you shouldn't be doing Judgement of Command. If you could, then you could simple add an equip line to your seal macros and get to use both anyway.
Not a good idea, since swapping Librams resets the swing timer.
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
Not really because of mana, but because JoB hits harder than JoC. And because it'd be silly to go...
- Seal Command
- Swing, thus Seal Blood
- ReSeal Command to Judge
Hmmm... I just think it activates a GCD while in combat.
The libram checks serverside after you judge (or the two-spells nature of Judgement of Command delays the check long enough for you to equip first).
I added /equip "Libram of Mending" to my holy light cast, and added /equip "Libram of Divine Judgement" to counter that, both at the end of their relevant macros. Even when the macro swaps, on the /cast Judgement /cast Seal of Command /startattack /equip libram macro I still occasionally get Crusader's Command procs off that judgement.
Does Rawr take DPS-increasing set bonuses into account, e.g. the T4 (2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%?
The reason I ask is that Rawr is showing [Vengeful Gladiator's Scaled Helm] as a ~5 DPS increase for me over [Justicar Crown], while the spreadsheet is showing the latter as a ~2 DPS increase over the former. (I also have [Justicar Shoulderplates] in the shoulder slot on both.) Same gems and enchant on everything. The only thing I can think of that would account for this is that one takes the 2 piece set bonus into account while the other doesn't.
Ah okay, that makes sense then. I just figured since you have to switch to SoB right before the swing anyway that judging wouldn't cause any problems. It's due to mana constraints that you wouldn't judge SoC, correct?
I think when attempting to Seal Twist, you should play the majority of the fight with Seal of Blood up, Judge Blood, Seal of Command R1, and "twist" on your next auto attack.
Something like this:
Seal of Blood Active.... ----> [Auto Swing]------>[Judgement of Blood]-[Seal of Command (R1)]------>[Seal of Blood+Auto-Swing]
Utilising a macro such as:
#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 1)
Basically pulling off the entire twist between your auto-attacks, so you have Seal of Blood active on 100% of your White Swings. You may just have to simply delay your Judgements a little, waiting until just after an auto-swing has gone off.
It seems effective to try and pull this off every third swing, affecting your Crusader Strike cooldown as little as possible.
Yeah. I've spent the last 30 minutes or so trying out different theoretical rotations and they turn out pretty sloppy, but that was because I was basing the whole rotation around twisting rather than trying to work it in around what already existed. I think it's just hard for me to overcome the "everything on cooldown" mentality that I've had since pre-BC as a warrior and not judge as often as I'm used to. Playing around with twisting a little bit last night showed me how powerful it was, so it's definitely worth putting some effort into learning before it gets "fixed".
Thanks for all the help and making me realize the obvious, such as not being able to judge every seal due to the cooldown on it.
I think when attempting to Seal Twist, you should play the majority of the fight with Seal of Blood up, Judge Blood, Seal of Command R1, and "twist" on your next auto attack.
Something like this:
Seal of Blood Active.... ----> [Auto Swing]------>[Judgement of Blood]-[Seal of Command (R1)]------>[Seal of Blood+Auto-Swing]
Utilising a macro such as:
#showtooltip Judgement
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Command(Rank 1)
Basically pulling off the entire twist between your auto-attacks, so you have Seal of Blood active on 100% of your White Swings. You may just have to simply delay your Judgements a little, waiting until just after an auto-swing has gone off.
It seems effective to try and pull this off every third swing, affecting your Crusader Strike cooldown as little as possible.
Yeah Sayris, I learned in ZA that the "adhoc" method of twisting leads you down a bad road of forgetting or missing CS/judgements. From the way I see it, the actual twist only occurs on one out of every 2 to 3 swings, just somethign to do with some downtime more than a real change to your rotation. I'm going to practice it on blasted lands mobs for a while, then on Tuesday give it a try on brut and see if I'm not entirely retarded.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
would it be worth it to get imp judgement as a BE trying to seal twist or are you only goin to get one twist inbetween judgments anyway? i guess after thinking about it judgement is your reset of SoC so you would want that on a shorter c/d. /shrug i guess its up to you BE to play around with.
With all of the passive haste on tier 6.5, felspine, sunwell rings and neck, it's quite hard to time. I'd agree it's possibly something to weave into your rotation if you CDs make sense but at this point I'm not sure how much i'll be using it.
Oddly this technique might be more effective for paladins who haven't picked up t6/6.5 haste gear. I would have had a much easier time doing this with Torch + BT pieces than my current gear set.
I agree, the slower your swingtime is, the better you can perform sealtwisting without screwing up your other CDs.
I've tried sealtwisting on Brutallus and during the bloodlust + hastepot time i totally messed it (analysing the wws, there were some swings even without any seal).
The burst potential of sealtwisting also should be considered. If you get a WF+SoC proc, there will be 3 SoB procs after it :
19:29'32.546 Carpathia gains 1 Attack from Windfury Attack
19:29'32.546 Carpathia's Swing hits Brutallus for 1630 Physical damage
19:29'32.861 Carpathia gains Windfury Attack
19:29'32.889 Carpathia's Seal of Command hits Brutallus for 1673 Holy damage
19:29'32.889 Carpathia's Swing crits Brutallus for 3822 Physical damage
19:29'33.283 Carpathia gains Seal of Blood
19:29'33.690 Carpathia's Seal of Blood hits Brutallus for 900 Holy damage
19:29'33.700 Carpathia's Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1809 Holy damage
19:29'34.129 Carpathia's Seal of Blood crits Brutallus for 1838 Holy damage
so be careful on high threat situations
If you want to give sealtwisting a try, it's essential to use an accurate swingtimer mod like Doc's Swingerclub and practice the above-mentioned rotation
I've been using this thread to help me work out a lot of my ret questions, so I wanted to thank the guys who are putting the time and effort into helping guys like me. I've been (and still am) a holy paladin, but recently been going ret for brutallus (great place to start when you've got no experience huh? lol)
My one question is, with AW being a 3min cooldown, and all trinkets/potions being 2min, what is the most efficent use of timers?
This is how I've been approaching it
Brutallus:
0:15 AW + trinket + haste pot (15 sec allows for vengence x3)
2:15 trinket + haste pot
3:15 AW back up but trinket/pot down
4:15 all cooldowns up but heroism in 15 sec
4:30 AW + trinket + pot + heroism
5:15 2nd shaman switched in for heroism #2
What about an 8 min fight where you have 3x AW cooldowns resets? Brut is unique in that you can only ever get 2 AWs, so I save the second for heroism. In a fight that allows AW to be used every time it is availabe, do you just use trinket and potions on a 3 minute rotation as well?
Thanks,
Willis
(posted from my iphone, hopefully this is legible)
That must have taken an awfully long time to write with your iphone (at least it would with mine).
Anyway, your rotion for Brut looks fine. For longer fights, just remember an Avenging Wrath is always more beneficial in a heroism or bloodlust (same goes with any cooldown except haste potions, which are pretty much equal alone compared to bloodlust/heroism, but more valuable when used with cooldowns). That being said, using one heroism in a lust/hero is not more beneficial than using two without. Just keep these pieces in mind and you should be set.
On to a different topic, those of you worried about your raid spots on M'uru should not be. Apparently, Vindication does work on the blood elves (the mobs the melee would be attacking), and it DOES lower the mobs total hp. By how much I'm not sure, but when the mob goes from 97% --> full numerous times you can rest assured its because of lowered HP and not heals.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Sorry for going off the seal-twist discussion but I have a question about armor penetration.
Has anyone tried with a big amount of ArP? Does it make a big difference in raids (trash mobs and bosses).
I'm running with 923 passive + Executioner right now and yes, it is a very nice DPS increase. I wouldn't use Armor Penetration items over best-in-slots, but there are plenty of Armor Pen. items that are close enough that they're worth wearing.
ArP for us is like haste for warriors (and maybe alliance ret pallies?); its not bad at all, but its not the best.
Speaking of which, there seemed to be a lot of discussion (arguements?) regarding SoC procs in the previous page or two...I haven't been able to catch if that has been resolved or not. Anyone care to clear this up for me so I can make appropriate changes to Rawr if necessary?
Edit: Avitus hasn't posted in a day or so, should we panic?
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
For the past few hours i've been searching this thread about ferals and retridins, and their contributes to the raid DPS and desided to make a post and ask for directions or the math itself.
This week we've started to talk about group synergy and the use of retridins, and the discussion atm is if a rogue/rogue/war/enh/retri do more raid dps then a rogue/feral/war/enh/ret. or rogue/rogue/feral/war/enh. In any case its about melee group synergy.
So far i haven't found what i was looking for in this thread and hope you guys can help me with this situation cause i'm no mathematic.
The question is, what melee group synergy is or would be best in theory. (practice and RNG can screw things up of course).
If i remembered the statements in this thread correct, it was said a feral has more use of a hunter as well as that the total DPS would be higher with a second rogue in the melee group replacing the feral. So in short, swapping the rogue with the feral from the tank group to the melee group.
Above is still talk, our current melee group consist mostly out of enh/war/rogue/rogue/feral and with the help of this thread i'm slowly convincing the leader to take a retridin
There have been several posts about retri DPS and it is really believing but i need comparisons to the other classes, with math to back it up.
I'd really appreciate it if somebody would be willing to take the time to math it out for me, or point me to the page/thread where i can find it.
P.S. for info, our guild is currently raiding BT, trying to kill illidan so our gear lvl is roughly T6 equivalent.
Brutallus:
0:15 AW + trinket + haste pot (15 sec allows for vengence x3)
2:15 trinket + haste pot
3:15 AW back up but trinket/pot down
4:15 all cooldowns up but heroism in 15 sec
4:30 AW + trinket + pot + heroism
5:15 2nd shaman switched in for heroism #2
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
05/18/08, 8:00 PM
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