Sorry for going off the seal-twist discussion but I have a question about armor penetration.
Has anyone tried with a big amount of ArP? Does it make a big difference in raids (trash mobs and bosses).
To see empirically how ArP affects your damage you get get Rawr, and play with both the Boss Armor Slider and ArP gear. Anecdotally, while on trash you can see (fairly drastically) how your damage increases as sunder stacks up on the mob. I only have 230 ArP so far, but with full sunders up You can really notice the damage increase on CS when Executioner procs. I'm Looking forward to grabbing the signet of primal wrath and Gurtogg pants but alas both are hard to come by for us.
Additionally, I'm working on finding out what is a reasonable tolerance for tightness of ret cycles, but I'm having issue with consecration. On WWS, for counting consecration I would think that it would be DoT tics + all resist, but in all the wws I've gone over so far this does not end up being evenly divisible by 8. I'd think that it should, considering that i've only looked at teron & Brut so far and unless the boss dies with consecration up it should tic all 8 times. Aside from that, would it be a safe bet that for whatever whole number the (total / 8) ends up as, to round it up to the next whole number?
Additionally, I'm working on finding out what is a reasonable tolerance for tightness of ret cycles, but I'm having issue with consecration. On WWS, for counting consecration I would think that it would be DoT tics + all resist, but in all the wws I've gone over so far this does not end up being evenly divisible by 8. I'd think that it should, considering that i've only looked at teron & Brut so far and unless the boss dies with consecration up it should tic all 8 times. Aside from that, would it be a safe bet that for whatever whole number the (total / 8) ends up as, to round it up to the next whole number?
If the boss dies halfway through a Consecration it will only tic 4 times on the WWS (example). Just add tics+resists and divide by 8 and round up for purposes of seeing total number of casts.
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
The above sentence is not well-formed.
Anyway, with JoW, 2Piece T6 and mana spring (assuming enhance shaman), I don't have any mana problems on Brut during a pretty heavy rotation. If JoW get knocked off from debuffs, you are going are going to go OOM unless you mana pot. I used to have problems with JoW getting knocked off mid-way during Brut but with some debuff management, it's been up 100% in recent kills.
you dont have issues with mana? i know if im useing max rank cons and exorcism i have to mana pot and from what ive read it is better for an ally pally to do so
Oh I do have mana problems, but I've never been ret, so my gear is kinda gimped (need 2nd t6 ret piece for bonus) and I'm not a full time ret paladin, so I still have trouble knowing how long my mana will last.
My first night as ret (ever) was on brut practices and I was doing a pathetic 1200dps. On our second night I was ~1500. Our attempt that produced our first kill last week, JoW fell off at 30%, so that significantly affected my dps. I'm hoping to get a better feel for it this week now that I have a mod to watch other paladins judgements.
Question to the alliance paladins on brut: do you mana pot? I'm really new to this; I'd love to know what you guys doing 1900+ do differently
Edit: sorry for legibility problems, still posting from my iPhone which, while being a luxury, is still a hassle
[Fel Mana Potion] and [Assassin's Alchemist Stone] if you have it. You'll want to use a DST/Zerker's Call in place of DC:C because of the debuff, but it is well worth the cost. Without the alchemist stone I am able to keep down Rank IV Consecration and rank VII Exorcism almost the entire fight, with it I would assume you could max rank both.
You'll want to use a DST/Zerker's Call in place of DC:C
Wouldn't [Shard of Contempt] still be the best trinket even for alliance paladins? It gives 11 base expertise, how would you compensate for that when your racial only gives 5? I've seen most alliance paladins dropping one of the new pieces of T6 to compensate for the gap.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Wouldn't [Shard of Contempt] still be the best trinket even for alliance paladins? It gives 11 base expertise, how would you compensate for that when your racial only gives 5? I've seen most alliance paladins dropping one of the new pieces of T6 to compensate for the gap.
SoC should be in trinket slot 1 regardless of whatever you're using in the second slot. I should have been clearer, if you're not using the Alchemist's stone and using fel manas you don't want DMC:C is what I meant. I'll edit that.
Ah, I didn't think you'd make a mistake like that. Point understood
On a side note, my haste gear is coming along nicely. 233 passive haste + DST. I'm a little nervous about twisting, if I have time to practice it more before brutallus I will, if not I'll just go the old SoB route. Either way a few people were curious if I'd make a video of my Brutallus DPS, and I believe that the EJ ban on Brut strats has been lifted. Hoping for T6 belt tonight to cap me on expertise so I will never miss a CS (man, that's gonna be an awesome feeling).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Super mana potion: 1800-3000 (2400) mana
Fel mana potion: 3200 mana
Max rank concecration: 627 mana for 512 damage
Number of concecrations with 1 mana pot: 3-5 depending on which potion and how much mana it returns.
That is a total of 1536-2560 damage from 1 mana potion.
Haste potion: 38.05% increase in attack speed for 15 seconds
Average DPS: ~1500 (ball park value, for napkin-math)
Average DPS from white damage: ~44%
1500*0.44 = 660dps from white damage.
Adding haste potion: 660 * 1.38% = 910.8 dps * 15 seconds = 13662 total damage for 1 haste potion
Am I missing something? I'm not claiming to know much about this stuff, but it seems really odd to use a mana potion to use more max rank concecrations which are terribly inefficient for damage per point of mana.
I know this is very very rough math, but thankfully dealing in percentages i dont have to worry about all the random buffs that affect the haste duration, its a percentage of the overall dps of a paladin
With an Alchemist Stone (the only time you would be using max rank) you get back 4480 mana from each Fel Mana Pot, or about 7 max rank Consecrations. Combined with JoW, Mana Spring and BoW you are getting enough mana to keep a max rank Consecration down all the time. Full rank Consecration at 100% uptime is roughly 115 DPS.
Avitus has a long post comparing them with exact numbers a bit back.
Am I missing something? I'm not claiming to know much about this stuff, but it seems really odd to use a mana potion to use more max rank concecrations which are terribly inefficient for damage per point of mana.
"Adding haste potion: 660 * 1.38% = 910.8 dps * 15 seconds = 13662 total damage for 1 haste potion"
You're attributing the base damage from auto-attack (100%) to the haste potion (which only adds 38%). I'd hope that you'd continue auto-attacking when you use consecration... = )
Something that I haven't seen discussed too much here in our thread is discussing how close to optimal players are able to get with their rotations. The aim is to give players something to compare against evaluating their own performance.
My data came from randomly selected WWS reports. The constraints of the search were that they were on the front page of Brutallus reports, and that they were alliance paladins. The alliance restraint is due to hoard paladins receiving greater benefit from Haste pots and possibly having improper exorcism and consecrate data. If I caught you on a bad day, I'm sorry.
Average Time per Crusader Strike: 6.58
Standard Dev: 0.19
Average Time Per Judgment: 13.81
Standard Dev: 2.77
Average Time per Exorcism: 25.34
Standard Dev: 8.63
Consecration times varied far too much to be worth anything in my opinion. Additionally I did not track the average tic of consecration, which would have been good to do in hindsight as it would have given a better idea of the relationship between consecration rank and realistic uptime.
The crusader strike result seems very solid. With lag and *possible* GCD overlap 6.5 is still close to the 6.0 ideal. And it lets me know that my 6.9 personal average could use some work, although I'm tempted to blame me living somewhere between 2-3 thousand miles from the server for it.
However, i could use some help interpreting the judgment and exorcism results. Should i have excluded some of the more varied data, or just used a larger sample? The 13.8 second judgment seems very off to me, and my personal is around 10-11 seconds. Also, why do top end paladins have such long judge cool downs on Brutallus? Am i missing something there? Same questions go for exorcism.
Something that I haven't seen discussed too much here in our thread is discussing how close to optimal players are able to get with their rotations. The aim is to give players something to compare against evaluating their own performance.
...
However, i could use some help interpreting the judgment and exorcism results. Should i have excluded some of the more varied data, or just used a larger sample? The 13.8 second judgment seems very off to me, and my personal is around 10-11 seconds.
Actually about a dozen pages back (right around the bend where everyone was posting their Brutallus results), you'll find quiet a few dissections of WWS reports which discussed just that. Don't have time to look for them right now, but if you flip back a few pages, you should find what I'm talking about.
On another note, far from it me wanting to diminish any effort being done in ret theorycraft, but I do have to question your selection:
I see a heavy majority of the reports you selected listing paladins doing a sad ~1600 DPS on Brut, some as shamefully low as 1500 DPS. As a matter of fact, besides Saltycracker's WWS and maybe two or so others in there doing >1800 DPS, almost all the other results list horribly low WWS performance.
Originally Posted by Alborak
My data came from randomly selected WWS reports. The constraints of the search were that they were on the front page of Brutallus reports, and that they were alliance paladins.
...
Also, why do top end paladins have such long judge cool downs on Brutallus? Am i missing something there? Same questions go for exorcism.
And here lies the problem. WWS front page is filled by the top dps "raids", yet it does not mean their ret paladins are performing that well.
With the rare exception of a ret paladin at Brutallus not being in melee group or a backup holy paladin in low end gear filling the ret spot, any DPS under ~1750 is just bad play.
I'd say if you want to pursue this add the restriction of at least >1850 DPS to be considered, otherwise you're just saturating the results by pure bad play.
Originally Posted by Zurm
Edit: Avitus hasn't posted in a day or so, should we panic?
I won't be around much for the next two weeks of exam hell, but I'll check in here and there as time allows.
I see a heavy majority of the reports you selected listing paladins doing a sad ~1600 DPS on Brut, some as shamefully low as 1500 DPS. As a matter of fact, besides Saltycracker's WWS and maybe two or so others in there doing >1800 DPS, almost all the other results list horribly low WWS performance.
And here lies the problem. WWS front page is filled by the top dps "raids", yet it does not mean their ret paladins are performing that well.
I'd say if you want to pursue this add the restriction of at least >1850 DPS to be considered, otherwise you're just saturating the results by pure bad play.
Aha, i was wondering why they seemed so low on DPS. I made the assumption that guilds killing brutallus in ~5m would have solid ret paladins, but that doesn't seem right anymore. However, while Saltycracker does have 2k dps, his judge and consecrate times also seem to be high?
I will take up your recommendation for the 1850 restriction, I'll have plenty of time to search tomorrow at work.
Consecration time is not a factor really, since some people don't downrank and just use their extra mana with max rank.
Best case scenario, you want to be downranking just right to be able to spam consecration the whole fight through without having to stop due to mana issues at any point, while at the same time making sure you have no mana left over at the very end of the fight. This is certainly what I strive for.
In reality, a lot of people tend to just use max rank and then stop when their mana goes low, then continue again after mana pot (or when they get more mana) and so on, instead of downranking.
The above described best case would obviously give you slightly more bang (damage) for your buck (mana) due to more efficient damage/mana ratio on lower ranks, but the overall difference between both methods is really minimal, not enough to cause a fuss over :P
About judgement times, what results are you getting? Keep in mind the theoretical optimum should be 9 seconds (not 8) due to prioritizing CS.
ArP for us is like haste for warriors (and maybe alliance ret pallies?); its not bad at all, but its not the best.
So you mean that its a better stat for Horde Paladins? And if so what would be best for us Alliance Paladins? We are soon doing BT so i want to max out the possible DPS i can push from gear.
So this is my 2nd week as ret for brutallus and I don't know what I can do to improve. There are small things that will come with time, tightening up my rotation and as it becomes more natural, being able to watch my cooldowns better...
Anyway, I was raiding from a hotel with some pretty terrible internet, so a lag spike occasionally threw off my rotation. Here is a wws of brut kill: Wow Web Stats
Just wondering if there are any major mistakes anyone can notice? I can't seem to break 1600dps and i'm not sure i want to blame it on gear yet! although 2 piece t6 would really be nice, along with some more expertise!
So you mean that its a better stat for Horde Paladins? And if so what would be best for us Alliance Paladins? We are soon doing BT so i want to max out the possible DPS i can push from gear.
Haste is pretty amazing for horde paladins. It scales extremely well because SoB procs every hit, not on a PPM basis. If you want to see the best stat for you right now, you should probably check out Rawr... it has a stat breakdown option. ArP will likely get ranked very high. Just keep in mind the endgame set for alliance is similar to horde... just that alliance get less out of the massive amounts of haste on it. Haste isn't BAD by any means, it still makes you're white attacks land faster, and white damage is a very large portion of your DPS. However, it wont affect your SoC damage.
[Willis]:
I don't know really what alliance should expect for DPS on brut. However, I know group makeup and number of bloodlusts play a massive factor. You can check my guild's WWS reports (in my signature) if that helps. I'll be posting a video of our Brut kill last night. I only got one bloodlust, but it still gives a good general idea.
Last edited by Zurm : 05/21/08 at 10:08 AM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
On a side note, my haste gear is coming along nicely. 233 passive haste + DST. I'm a little nervous about twisting, if I have time to practice it more before brutallus I will, if not I'll just go the old SoB route.
I would imagine a DST makes seal-twisting all that more difficult. Sudden bursts of Haste is certainly not going to help your timing. Perhaps switch to an alternative Trinket? On a similar note, from what I've seen myself so far, when Bloodlust is up, its alot more viable to return to the standard SoB rotation.
It does. The haste proc is a MASSIVE shift in attack speed. I've just given up on it for raiding situations, I feel like I'd just do worse dps in the end. In addition, I can't imagine Blizzard not fixing this in the near future (or giving us the magical new seal which replaces SoC and SoB). And yes, during lust it is, IMO, much better to just stick to your main rotation.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
So this is my 2nd week as ret for brutallus and I don't know what I can do to improve. There are small things that will come with time, tightening up my rotation and as it becomes more natural, being able to watch my cooldowns better...
Anyway, I was raiding from a hotel with some pretty terrible internet, so a lag spike occasionally threw off my rotation. Here is a wws of brut kill: Wow Web Stats
Just wondering if there are any major mistakes anyone can notice? I can't seem to break 1600dps and i'm not sure i want to blame it on gear yet! although 2 piece t6 would really be nice, along with some more expertise!
Thanks,
Willis
Don't sign your posts.
Out of a possible 57 Crusader Strikes you had 52 (pretty good)
Out of a possible 41 Judgements you had 26 (bad)
Out of a possible 24 Exorcisms you had 13 (bad)
Out of a possible 46 Consecrations you had 5 (absolutely horrible)
Push your cooldowns harder, chug Fel Mana Pots, and if you're not already use a Judge/Reseal macro to cut downtime.
Out of a possible 57 Crusader Strikes you had 52 (pretty good)
Out of a possible 41 Judgements you had 26 (bad)
Out of a possible 24 Exorcisms you had 13 (bad)
Out of a possible 46 Consecrations you had 5 (absolutely horrible)
Push your cooldowns harder, chug Fel Mana Pots, and if you're not already use a Judge/Reseal macro to cut downtime.
am I breaking a forum rule by signing a post? Sorry.
There was just a post saying the consecration dps between less casts of max rank vs. downranked is fairly minimal. In the end I converted all the mana I had into dps. The mistake that I seem to have is choosing haste pot over mana pot, but I guess I need to see the comparison before I believe it. A few posts up someone corrected my math but even still haste pot was ~1100 damage more without taking into consideration 38% faster jow procs which just helps haste pot's performance even more.
am I breaking a forum rule by signing a post? Sorry.
There was just a post saying the consecration dps between less casts of max rank vs. downranked is fairly minimal. In the end I converted all the mana I had into dps. The mistake that I seem to have is choosing haste pot over mana pot, but I guess I need to see the comparison before I believe it. A few posts up someone corrected my math but even still haste pot was ~1100 damage more without taking into consideration 38% faster jow procs which just helps haste pot's performance even more.
The haste pot adds 38% more JoW procs from Auto-attack. In a 15 second time period, you might have around ... 5 auto-attacks? You get an extra 2 auto-attacks.
On the other hand, 3000 mana buys at least 5 Consecrates and each Consecrate has a chance to proc JoW. (You get more than 5 if you downrank)
05/20/08, 1:48 PM
![[Willis]'s Avatar](http://avatars.cdn.elitistjerks.com/customavatars/avatar71882_2.gif){kind=avatar}
although 2 piece t6 would really be nice, along with some more expertise!
