I posted a "thanks" in advance for anyone willing to take the time to comment on my performance, didn't mean for it to be a signing of a post, my mistake.

Anyway thanks for the information and criticisms.

@Alborak

I do hear ya on the non ideal attack timings, but I'm constantly fighting the global cooldown to keep my rotation going.

CS (1.5s GCD) -> Judgement/Reseal(1.5) -> Exorcism (1.5) -> Consecrate (1.5)

Not to mention lag adding to the equation. You can see from that rotation that you global cooldowns add up to 6 secs. So If I was to do that over and over (allowing time for cooldowns) you would always be missing attacks. It just becomes fun juggling priorities. You use your high dmg attacks before you use your lower ones.

If I still have 1 sec cooldown remaining on my CS and my Exorcism is ready, I dont feel too bad about losing .5 secs off my CS.

Im not too fussed about judging and resealing tightly because you lose 1.5 secs to GCD in the process as well as no judging close to a swing in case you lose a SoC proc. Im usually doing judges and reseals in the middle of my swing timer.

These are things I'm sure everyone is struggling with. Its hard to be perfect especially with this cobbled spec Bliz has given us.

Edit: Thanks Kadrok, Its brain dead tuesday.

Judging is not subject to the GCD. A Judgement/reseal macro will only cause 1 GCD. Keep in mind that you do not always have to judge and reseal at the same time. You can judge immediately after you Crusader Strike, during the GCD, as long as you have time to recast your seal before your swing.

Indulge me for going back to the refreshing judgements proccing JoW for a sec.

Did we run any tests where more judgements on the target result from more procs? Say we have JotC, JoW, JoL, JoJ active on the target (4 paladin raids are uncommon though). Does having more judgments on the target scale the amount of JoW procs you will get?

I see the haste chart on the first page and the damage scaling for it with SoC. My question is, is there a similar chart posted somewhere on this threat with Ignore Armor? with everything I have proc'd im at about 1660 ignore armor (that's executioner too) so i'd like to see the effect it's having and how well it scales.

Something else I realized last night, most people probably have already but it struck me as pretty awesome. Haste has a "hidden" benefit...it increases the proc rate of JoW/JoL (as well as any other non-PPM effect you may have from trinkets, etc). I noticed that with 0 benediction mana still wasn't that big of an issue (I still didn't like having to ration my consecrates, and twisting with 0/5 benedictions was pretty aweful).

Just wanted to point out the obvious, thats another "check" on the pro's side of haste for ALL paladins.

On a side note, I wonder if Blizzard will address the retribution community's concerns in the new talents and skills. It seems to me that blizzard is taking a new approach this time around, doing talent trees first and then possibly going back and adding in level 80 skills.

I tried out twisting on Brutallus last night, and came to the conclusion that for me, it's not worth it. With a base 3.29 attack speed, DST, Mongoose and haste potions, it becomes a nightmare trying to sync up timers with twisting and getting decent CS usage and ensuring every attack has at least a SoB proc. I tried it for a few fights and it was pretty unmanageable for me. In addition, while I did get it right a few of those times, it didn't seem like a very dramatic increase in damage. I ended up getting better results returning to a standard priority rotation including exorcism and consecration(probably due in part to the fact that I'm raid leading and have to juggle groups around and pay attention to brezzes and such). That said, if there were a dps race fight in which we couldn't use exorcism or consecration I would definitely consider seal twisting, as it seems to at least make up for that difference.

Anyway if people want to check out my parses we had a subpar night and plenty of brut wipes which allowed me to try out each of these cycles: Wow Web Stats

The way I've always approached this situation is that in the past, Judgments have typically made up 5~ish% of my damage (or last time I really used a Max rank SoC), necessitating chaining Super Mana/Fel Man Potions to make up for the extra mana loss in using Max rank. Since I've entered T5/T6/T6.5 content, I've only used Rank 1 SoC, and not had as much of a problem with mana longevity; additionally, Judgments make up 3-4% of my total damage... it's really trading a *bit* of damage for longevity in my eyes, and in my opinion, a Pally with no Mana does little to no damage. Additionally this frees up your potion cooldown to chain Haste Potions instead of Mana Potions.

... and for the record, Seal Twisting in PvE is a nightmare.

For PvP, I hopped on my Blood Elf and it was pretty overpowered (Nerf needed in my opinion) - Using Cataclysm's Edge & 4/5 T6, I was hitting clothies for 10k in one swing pretty much every time.

Going from a 3.5 to a 3.0 swing timer nets you an extra 1.4 JoW procs a minute (if JoW is acting correctly), or about 8.63 Mp5. Not terrible, nothing to write home about though.

I'll second this. I've found it almost impossible to actually get a dps increase with twisting in PvE due to cooldowns. In PvP though you can get some absolutely nightmarish hits with a reliable frequency. It's almost like playing Pre-tbc PvP again with one-shotting every second opponent.

Also regarding Brutallus, if I get 1800+ I'm happy and it's a good one. Usually I am getting 1600ish. I know for a start the enchant on my weapon is not ideal (Savagery) but surely that can't be the only thing letting me down. I'm sure my average judgment time can't be more than 10-11 seconds...

One problem I do have which I am unsure how to overcome. The shaman in my group "never" tells us when he will do BL. It could be near the start, middle or end. I usually try time my AW to coincide with it but wind up losing out on doing two per fight if he does a late BL. I'm the guy who taunts at enrage (if it happens) so I need forbearance gone by the time it hits.
My question would be this, should I ignore when he does his BL and just hit AW along with my own haste pot cycles and forget trying to time them together, or wait and risk only using one AW?

Sadly, getting the Shaman to tell me every attempt when he will exactly do BL is out of the question.

I ran tests with 2 paladins and 2 judgments only. I thought about running tests with a full load of judgements, but I don't think I can wrangle enough pallys into doing my dirty work for 20 minutes at one time.

I'm not certain CS refreshes judgements the same way as our autoswing does. CS refreshed judgements still drop in priority, while our own judgements are act as if they were just reaplied. If I were to make a hypothesis it would be that judgements refreshed by CS do not give a chance to proc JoW.

For those who are bored or interested, here is our last Brut kill last night. It was far from ideal, as I got only one bloodlust, and we didn't have CoR or a Surv Hunter. You can find the WWS in my sig (Sunwell on May 20th).

Zurm vs Brut

What are you using to announce your CDs? Is it SCT (if so is it built-in or custom events you have defined)?

New Apolyon stats: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...olyonfinal.jpg

Quickened to 3.4, sorry alliance.

And yea, its SCT (built in)

..............

God damn it blizzard.

Hi, I'm primarily a holy paladin. I've respecced to retribution for a week to see what it's like to play. I have a question about Judgement of the Crusader. How short does a fight need to be so that you won't judge it? Do you judge on just bosses (not trash) or does the damage increase from it outweigh what an extra Judgement of Command would do on any fight longer than a few seconds?

Thanks

Seal twisting is alternating between SoC and SoB.

Basically, you start off buffed with SoC, then as your swing connects, you switch to SoB. What happens is that you get a white hit, a SoC proc, a SoB proc from the white hit, and a SoB proc from the SoC proc*.

In PvP, you can replace SoB with SoJ, such that you get a white hit, a SoC proc and a (guaranteed?) SoJ stun.

*I still believe it's a WF-esque weapon damage swing that only shows up yellow because it's magical damage because of this, akin to a Elemental mob dealing magical damage in its melee attacks following melee rules.

so as an alliance paladin, my best bet would be to do this with SoV, as I don't have SoB?

Oh for the love of... punching the new values into Rawr shows a ~14 DPS decrease for SoC users, just from that 0.1 speed shift (also a slightly more negligible ~6 DPS decrease for SoB)

Sometimes I wonder if they do this on purpose, this is the second time this happens, first from 3.8 speed to 3.5, now to 3.4 speed. I really question what their goal is here.

I know none of them were announced, but surely they can't be naive enough to think that even those internal/pre-release decisions don't get noticed and have their effects.

Why release the end of expansion, best in slot two hander as a 3.4 speed beats me.


Furthermore, this closes the gap between Apolyon and the S4 sword a shockingly laughable ~8.5 DPS difference if you need the hit rating from the S4 sword (and ~30 DPS if you're at the hit cap and wasting the 19 hit rating on the S4 sword).



In regards to the "newly discovered items" on mmo/wor, my review:

The new cape is just mental: Cloak of Unforgivable Sin, there's just nothing out there that comes close, by a very large margin.

Same case is with the new mail gloves (and they have +int as a bonus!): Thalassian Ranger Gauntlets

Both of these are so ridiculously powerful through sheer itemstats, they even go above other previously best in slot items that had hit rating even under the hit cap ([Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] and [Hard Khorium Battlefists]). They are both definitely the new best in slot items, regardless of hit cap or SoC/SoB usage (though that's of course on paper, you might want to still always aim for hitcap for other reasons).


The other two items are slightly less obscene, but still pretty good:

Coif of Alleria is the new best in slot if you're hit capped, but loses to [Duplicitous Guise] if you're actually going to use all the 30 hit rating to get capped from that. Again, +int is an added bonus here.

Borderland Paingrips are nothing to call home for really. They're better than [Hard Khorium Battlefists] if you don't need the hit and worse if you do. Both of them lose to [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] and of course the new mail gloves mentioned above, regardless of hit cap.



On a slight tangent, I think Rawr is currently severely overestimating [Blackened Naaru Sliver] unless I'm missing something. For some reason it's shown as the equivalent of 146 passive AP and 54 haste, which I don't think is correct.


I don't normally do this, but: This exact question, as well as your previous one is answered pretty much exactly in the last few pages by several people. For the sake of everyone involved, can you please actually read the thread rather than constantly ask for information to be spoonfed? ;/

Yeah, those are the stats for Cats... Probably significantly lower for you guys due to longer time to get it to proc and longer time to stack the buff up.

Napkin time (this may be horribly incorrect, correct me please if so). Assuming an unhasted 3.5 speed w/ Cat's Edge. Very unrealistic in a raid scenario, but this'll be the "worst" scenario...

Assuming the trinket procs and you CS and hit at the exact same time, here's what it would look like for Seal of Blood.

0:00 Trinket procs
0:00 White hit
0:00 SoB hit
0:00 Crusader Strike

+132 (3x44) AP for 20 seconds

0:03.5 White hit
0:03.5 SoB hit

+88 AP for 16.5 seconds

0:06 Crusader Strike

+44 AP for 14 seconds

0:07 White hit
0:07 SoB hit

+88 AP for 13 seconds

0:10.5 White hit
0:10.5 SoB hit

+ 88 AP for 9.5 seconds

After 10.5 seconds you'd have a 10 stack, equaling 440 AP for 9.5 seconds. If you take the uptime of each individual AP stack and divide by the buff's duration, 20 seconds, you should find the average AP you'd gain during it's proc.

132*(20/20) = 132
88*(16.5/20) = 72.6
44*(14/20) = 30.8
88*(13/20) = 57.2
88*(9.5/20) = 41.8

334.4 average AP over 20 seconds.

Now, divide this by the internal CD of 45 seconds.

334.4*(20/45) = 148.62 AP

148.62 AP assuming it procs every 45 seconds. It won't, so given a 10 second window of it proc'ing after it's cooldown, it's between 135-148.6 AP.

Remember, this is the "best" WORST scenario.

-----------------------

For the "worst" WORST scenario...

no haste, trinket procs right after you CS and white it, basically your initial White hit is delayed 3.5 second and your initial CS is delayed 6 seconds (same setup as ubove, I don't want to retype >_>)...

111.46 AP assuming it procs every 45 seconds. It won't, so given a 10 second window of it proc'ing after it's cooldown, it's between 91.2-111.46 AP.

-----------------------

Averaging out the two worst scenarios you're looking at 113.1-129.03 AP from this trinket. What this value basically is is the worst this trinket can be for Seal of Blood. In a raid scenario, this would be higher due to haste from several sources (Bloodlust, Drums of Battle, passive haste from gear, etc) leading to faster stacks and sooner activations. 121+ AP + 54 Passive Haste will outdo DST I imagine.

Gah, I'm tired now.

(I do realize the trinket itself gives some passive haste (54) but I was forgetful and it made the math easier.)