it's supposed to take into account everything, for example you would lose hit from the t4 shoulders thus breaking your hitcap. If you fill out the gem slots with hit gems or maintain hit some other way it'll go way up.
Depends on your situation. For example, if Justicar's has gems that let you meet your meta requirement and lightbringer don't, or there's a set bonus involved that is better, perhaps. You'll have to be alot more specific about your situation, and make sure you're completely filling out the character, in order for us to help you.
Also, if you are hitcapped with the Justicar shoulders and you go beneath hitcap by equiping the Lightbringer ones that will change the rating of them.
edit: Seems more then me are onl at the same time answering
Sorry, I know the weapon enchants thing has been beat into the ground, but I don't think this issue was directly covered (I apologize if it was).
Is the increased weapon speed buff on Mongoose a haste or does it behave like SotC (lowers weapon damage to give you the same dps at the increased speed)? My research from wowwiki, thottbot, and wowhead indicated that it is like SoTC and not a true haste. If this is true, I can't see how mongoose is even better than +35 Agility, as all the "haste" would do is give you an extra swing with the ~5% increased crit chance. My research also indicated that Mongoose was 1 ppm, which means that once every 20 minutes you would get an extra crit (5% = 1/20).
If mongoose is only 1 ppm, the 120 agility works out to a static 30 agility. I don't see the value of 30 ag + 1 crit every 20 minutes.
I'm sure the ppm of mongoose was discussed in here, but i didn't see it in my quick scan. I'm also pretty sure that all dps calculators assume the haste is a true haste, but does anyone have any data to support that, because everything I have seen suggests otherwise.
On a side note: If the haste does lower weapon damage like SotC, would the damage from CS and SoC also go down? I consider it likely as they just fixed CS to not be adversely affected my SotC.
SOTC is the only "haste" effect that lowers weapon damage.
Haste gained from haste rating, haste gained from Mongoose, haste gained from Bloodlust, all other types of haste all decrease your swing speed without affecting your damage per swing, effectively increasing your DPS.
It also says [Girdle of the Lightbearer] has only a score of 27,70, while I personally think it is a great belt.
Do I read it wrong, or is the program not correct at some points?
T4 is better than T6 because you are under the hit cap.
On my Rawr, that Girdle is 37, while a decent score, means there are many belts that are better (the 21 int isn't that useful). Remember to enter buffs, they make a big difference.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
SOTC is the only "haste" effect that lowers weapon damage.
Haste gained from haste rating, haste gained from Mongoose, haste gained from Bloodlust, all other types of haste all decrease your swing speed without affecting your damage per swing, effectively increasing your DPS.
I just thought of a test to prove it to myself too. SotC lowers your weapon damage on the character sheet, mongoose does not. So I guess those sites just have incorrect information, not terribly surprising.
Hi again. So Oceanic servers finally got stable, and since then we got 2 Kalecgos kills and tried Brutts a bit. Last week, we reached the enrage but we had too many healers. This week we are trying with only 7 healers but the tanks are still dying.
Here's a WWS report of our longest attempts last night: Trakor - WWS
Could you guys please look at it and tell me what I personally could be doing better? My dps that night was only around 1500 or so. DPSers weren't poting and going all out, since we are still trying to reach the enrage time, but I dont see how I could reach 1800+ dps just by poting and using max rank consecration, so I'm probably doing something wrong.
Thanks for any help you guys can offer in regards to my own performance or anybodyelse's if you spot something wrong there too. Cheers
The number mismatch is from placement of JotC. I know it's not affected by downranking, is it also unaffected by our damage multipliers? That damage (~83) should be dropped from both estimates in that case.
Is anyone still actively maintaining Rawr.Retribution? I was looking through the source, and found it was making this same error. That is, it is multiplying the JotC holy damage bonus by other damage multipliers when it should not be. Additionally, the damage contribution of Consecration is being based on a 8 second cooldown, when this is impossible in a real cycle for the same reasons that 2 points in Improved Judgement do not help.
In general, the current Rawr model is (slightly) overvaluing the damage contribution of spells (Judgement, Consecration, Exorcism).
That would be Zurm, it's possibly already on his list of fixes. He last posted in this thread about 3 days ago I'm sure he'll see notice your post sooner or later. Might be worth sending him a pm though just in case.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Here's a WWS report of our longest attempts last night: Trakor - WWS
Could you guys please look at it and tell me what I personally could be doing better? My dps that night was only around 1500 or so. DPSers weren't poting and going all out, since we are still trying to reach the enrage time, but I dont see how I could reach 1800+ dps just by poting and using max rank consecration, so I'm probably doing something wrong.
Thanks for any help you guys can offer in regards to my own performance or anybodyelse's if you spot something wrong there too. Cheers
You can really do this yourself.. all you have to do is take the fight time and work out how many crusader strikes, consecration's and exorcism's you should fit in that time frame.
I'm not going to do the math for you but my gut feeling is you're not getting as much damage out of crusader strike as you should, SoC was a larger % of your damage breakdown than CS. Normally it's other other way around unless you get lucky with SoC procs.
Try comparing to other Alliance Brutallus wws logs, eg:
Obbee: 1800 dps - Wow Web Stats
Obbee's abilities are hitting for 400-500 damage more than yours on average.
Last edited by Ragnor : 05/27/08 at 7:08 AM.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
You can really do this yourself.. all you have to do is take the fight time and work out how many crusader strikes, consecration's and exorcism's you should fit in that time frame.
I'm not going to do the math for you but my gut feeling is you're not getting as much damage out of crusader strike as you should, SoC was a larger % of your damage breakdown than CS. Normally it's other other way around unless you get lucky with SoC procs.
Try comparing to other Alliance Brutallus wws logs, eg:
Obbee: 1800 dps - Wow Web Stats
Obbee's abilities are hitting for 400-500 damage more than yours on average.
Thanks for the reply. Obbee does have better gear, he was poted and he had much more mana regen, so I can see why he did more dps and why he was hiting harder than me.
In regards to what you said, my CS and JoC had very low crit rate (bad luck with RNG). That fight went on for 4 min, or 240 secs. This gives me time for 40 CS. I had only 34 CS.... but CS is my number 1 priority and I really dont see how I lost so much time.
Would lag be the blame factor here? I'm in New Zealand, playing on Oceanic server and on average, my latency is at 600ms. Giving CS a cd of 6.6secs (factoring in latency), in 240 secs I could have done 36 swings. If latency is partially behind the reason, those 34 CS swings doesnt seem too bad anymore.
Compared to Obbee, I could do better on my consecration, since his one was ticking on avg by 45 more dmg than mine (result of the higher mana regen he had, so less downranking). Obbee judged on avg every 12.5 secs, and I judged every 12.6 secs, so thats not too bad either. He used exorcism every 40.5 secs and I used exorcism every 34 secs.
In the end, my rotation is about giving priority to CS, then exorcism, then JoC and then consecration. Seems like I can do a lot better on CS and JoC if latency isnt resposible for the delays and time lost. And if latency is to blame, then it comes down to gear and pots/consumables. Am I missing anything or does this sound about right? Yeah, im not used to analysing WWS reports that much in detail .
But yeah, thanks for the help so far . Let me know if my latency is affecting my performance or not and if you spot anything wrong with this post.
Latency and FPS do make a huge difference in my experience. There was a large discussion about oceanic players and latency here: Server locations, Latency & Australia
The nagle algorithm (Nagle's algorithm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was turned off in the client in a patch. Testing proves it's not turned off on the server end . People playing from outside the US on US servers will still get double the latency you would normally expect from a US server due to delayed TCP acknowledgements (600ms instead of 300ms, 500ms instead of 250ms etc).
I happen to also live in NZ but I get 150-250ms on Blackrock using Telstra ADSL and connecting via our guilds ssh tunnel. If you are not using a ssh tunnelling service you definitely should.. there are a lot of alternatives: Lower Ping, Ping Better, WowTunnels ...most have free trials.
It's a night and day difference playing on 600ms vs 200ms, you can never go back.
Last edited by Ragnor : 05/27/08 at 9:52 AM.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.
The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated
I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
So, it looks to me like you are getting caught on managing your cooldowns and global cooldowns and the rest is just lucky crits / procs
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
Some of us have to wear warrior gear, because T6 is so terrible compared to other options (<3 haste). And also, while the SoB knockback helps... a calculation far earlier in the thread proved the amount of mana regened was insignificant. If you look at my WWS reports, you will see that even on high AOE damage fights, I won't get more than 500-600 mana back over an alliance paladin, and since my gear already has far less int you really can't use that arguement. While 500-600 mana isn't trivial, its still not something to write home about and certainly won't make a difference in a fight where you're getting 4k mana back from JoW and a total of 2.5k from SA otherwise (point here: int isn't bad, but don't sacrifice dps for it).
To give you an idea... on RoS phase 1, I take a total of about 2.5-3k knockback damage for the whole phase, thats 250-300 mana healed from SA. Nothing too impressive. I think many alliance paladins make the mistake of grossly over-estimating the benefit of SoB recoil, and SoB in general for that matter. It's certainly better, but looking at Rawr its certainly not earthshattering.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated
I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
Even when you factor resists, I find that exorcism has a higher damage per mana so I tend to favor it over consecrate. Consecrate is good low cost DPS, but if you can exorcise do so.
Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.
For any WWS analyzing of Crusader Strike you assume a 6.5 second cooldown to account for latency and slightly pushed GCD's.
You're also reading the WWS completely wrong, he had 33 Crusader Strikes out of a possible 37 which is actually very good.
And again, before posting in this thread learn to read a WWS.
Originally Posted by Sterlin
The other is exorcism - you missed 14% of them and 9.9% of the damage was mitigated
I tend to favor Concecration over exorcism because of our lack of spell hit
I ran the numbers for it a bit back and Exorcism is still better than Consecration regardless of resists.
Originally Posted by Sterlin
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
It takes 16 Intellect to give you 1 extra Crusader Strike. That 16 Strength on the item budget would increase the damage of all your Crusader Strikes by 9.8 raid buffed. There is a very good reason why we wear "warrior gear".
I happen to also live in NZ but I get 150-250ms on Blackrock using Telstra ADSL and connecting via our guilds ssh tunnel. If you are not using a ssh tunnelling service you definitely should.. there are a lot of alternatives: Lower Ping, Ping Better, WowTunnels ...most have free trials.
It's a night and day difference playing on 600ms vs 200ms, you can never go back.
I've heard of people geting their account baned due to Lower Ping and other services like that, because Blizzard considers it a 3rd party software or something like that. Does anybody know anything else about that?
Originally Posted by Sterlin
Out of your best attempt on Brutalis at 4 minutes - you could have a potential 40 Crusader Strikes - you got 25 - so , givien global cooldowns and such you could firm that up a bit.
It was actually 25 hits + 1 miss (dodge) + 8 crits = 34 (right?). If 600 ms latency does affecy my CD, increasing it to 6.6secs, then I could have done only 36 swings. Sure, I still got room to improve and my guess is that the 2 CS that I didnt get to use were either due to a very small delay in my rotation (ie, awaiting 0.2 secs for GCD from another ability to finish), human reaction timing and once the tank died and a wipe was called I didnt bother with keeping a close eye on my rotation anymore.
Originally Posted by Sterlin
My other thought is that you might be running out of mana too fast - you have a lot of warrior peices over t6 - don't discount INT to the point where it handcuffs you. If you not getting heals to refresh your mana like a Blood Elf - you can't afford to have that mana pool
Yes, mana is a problem to me on most fights, but I'm sure I can work around it. I've got planty of [Crystal Mana Potion] to use, so I was using them and saving my [Elixir of Major Mageblood], [Fel Mana Potion] and [Dark Rune] to use when we are going to have a serious attempt on him, because so far, it's been about trying to last the enrage timer and keeping the tanks up. Another thing we're planing on doing is having a 4th pally outside the instance to give us another blessing, and in my case, it would be BoW (I only had kings, might and salvation so far). I'm gonna ask our shammy to drop mana spring totem and mana tide totem as well, if possible (as i doubt fire resist totem will help much and i dont see any other use for the water totem).
On a side note, my shammy so far is refusing to totem twist. He says he got the macro, I understand it only has to be used every 8 secs and I dont see whats the big deal. Is it big mana drain for them? Or does it affect their rotation too much (due to GCDs)? I think we got the dps to kill Brutts, once everybody pots and use consumables, specially considering that sub 20% our mages and warriors dps will increase considerably, so it might not be a big requirement just yet.
But yes, thanks for the replies guys. I guess i gotta work on using exorcism a bit more (15 secs Cd, but i used it every 34 secs - mostly due to mana) and on my judgements (every 12.6 secs when the cd is 8 secs). Or am i better off droping 2 points from Imp judgement (coz im clearly not judging every 8 secs and due to rotation priorities, i might not improve on it that much) and investing them in Benediction?
On a side note, my shammy so far is refusing to totem twist. He says he got the macro, I understand it only has to be used every 8 secs and I dont see whats the big deal. Is it big mana drain for them? Or does it affect their rotation too much (due to GCDs)? I think we got the dps to kill Brutts, once everybody pots and use consumables, specially considering that sub 20% our mages and warriors dps will increase considerably.
Twisting is a massive mana drain, but with Judgement of Wisdom he should be more than fine (our enhancement shaman actually only uses Shamanistic Rage to mitigate burn damage even while twisting because its so much mana). As long as you're keeping JoW up he should be fine and there is no reason not to be doing it.
And generally as an Alliance pally you'll want to have Judgement on a higher priority than Exorcism and Consecration. In addition to its damage (small but not inconcequential) it is worth 100 Attack Power with the libram. My priority is usually Crusader Strike > Judgement > Exorcism > Consecration for that fight.
To give you an idea... on RoS phase 1, I take a total of about 2.5-3k knockback damage for the whole phase, thats 250-300 mana healed from SA. Nothing too impressive. I think many alliance paladins make the mistake of grossly over-estimating the benefit of SoB recoil, and SoB in general for that matter. It's certainly better, but looking at Rawr its certainly not earthshattering.
You get healed in Phase 1 of RoS? That's friggin OP ^_^
Another note about the regen capability of SoB vs. SoC is that SoB doesn't proc JoW, SoC does.
Twisting is a massive mana drain, but with Judgement of Wisdom he should be more than fine (our enhancement shaman actually only uses Shamanistic Rage to mitigate burn damage even while twisting because its so much mana). As long as you're keeping JoW up he should be fine and there is no reason not to be doing it.
And generally as an Alliance pally you'll want to have Judgement on a higher priority than Exorcism and Consecration. In addition to its damage (small but not inconcequential) it is worth 100 Attack Power with the libram. My priority is usually Crusader Strike > Judgement > Exorcism > Consecration for that fight.
Thank you for all the feedback. I'll keep that in mind and change my rotation from now on
I have a question about the Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus. It reads as follows:
(2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.
Does this work with the Improved Seal of the Crusader being judged on a boss for the entire raid, or does this work only for the Party or Paladin only?
I have a question about the Justicar Battlegear 2-set bonus. It reads as follows:
(2) Set: Increases the damage bonus of your Judgement of the Crusader by 15%.
Does this work with the Improved Seal of the Crusader being judged on a boss for the entire raid, or does this work only for the Party or Paladin only?
Thank you.
The dmg bonus from JotC only affects holy dmg. The 3% crit is a different effect. In other words, it doesnt affect Imp SotC at all.
05/26/08, 2:55 AM
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