My apologies for the double post, but on another note, if it's due to server latency, What is keeping anybody from just twisting SoB with SoB?

I bet it's because SoC can proc a SoB but SoB can't proc himself.

Well, that still brings me to the SoV/SoR deal tho- if twisting either of those with SoC is doable, i'd like to hear about it, so if anybody has any input feel free to chime in.

Dragonwing, I think you already asked this before.

Anyway, while no one has reported actually trying to twist SOC and SOV together, it should theoretically work, but it should also theoretically suck.

With 0 spell damage on Ret gear, SOV will only be hitting for base values.
With 0 spell hit on Ret gear, SOV will be looking at 10%+ resist rates.
Both SOC and SOV are PPM-based procs, so your worst-case scenario is a plain white hit with nothing on it.

Between having no spell damage and high resist rates, I can't imagine SOC/SOV twisting to be worth the mana and the GCD juggling. You'd probably get better results trying to twist SOC and SOR, since SOR can't be fully resisted and procs on every hit, but again with SOR you wouldn't have any spell damage.

In my brief testing a few months ago I concluded none of the spell hit based seals are twist-able (SoR, SoV, SoW, SoL). As alliance you can only twist from SoC to SoJ so it's only useful for pvp.

Regarding the ideal twist rotation for a belf, you need a swing speed slower than 3.0 minimum 3.2 really..

From Nex's guide on cromfel's forums:



You can also read his guide here:
Cromfel.Battlefield.fi Forums-viewtopic-Seal Juggling, a how-to guide for horde paladins

Very nice work Ragnor... having a 3.08 swing timer I found it too difficult to do a twist cycle in PvE... but maybe thats a reason to drop haste gear?

Also, I figure I should let the users of this thread know... due to personal time conflicts I am no longer able to raid with my guild... so I will most likely stop playing. That being said, I'm willing to maintain Rawr.Ret indefinitely as long as I recieve input via PMs. If someone else would like to take the reins and knows C#/.NET fairly well, let me or Astrylian know.

So I was tinkering around with RAWR the other day, trying to figure out my optimal DPS set, and it kept telling me [Stormherald] was about 10 DPS better than [Lionheart Executioner]. I understand slower is better if items have the same DPS, but I figured surely the Strength Proc on the Executioner would push it well over the Stormherald. Does RAWR just not account for the proc?

You can seal twist seal of rightousness and seal of blood too. Incase you are prot and feel like putting on ret gear to dps when you aren't tanking in a raid. Blood won't proc off rightousness though. It works quite well with windfury.

You could also just have a spell dmg suit and swing your 1hander with over 1000 spell dmg.

Slower weapon means more damage on crusader strike AND Seal of Command. I know for a fact rawr does take the proc into account, and that sounds about right.

Wow. I never would have guessed .2 seconds would outweigh the proc, 2 agility and 10 strength advantage. That's quite impressive. Time to switch Smything specializations again, I suppose. Thank you for the clarification!

I have to move faster than the machine? Fun. How much range do I have? .1 sec? .3 sec?

Ill miss ya man.

Thanks ragnor, I had asked a similar question before, but had not tinkered with that idea until now

For the sake of lets say maximum damage, im to the understanding that judgement of command is based off of spell hit anyway, so throwing SoV off the table for the sake of that cause does not make any sense. My curiosity is, lets take Teron or Brut for example.

First off, Im curious to know if the ppm for SoC would vary on use. Lets say I activated SoC and it procced on my first swing. now lets say I got rid of the seal- and reactivated it 30 seconds later. Would I have a higher chance for a proc beacuse the seal had not proc'd in the last 30 seconds?

If that's the case, you could rotate SoV to a 5 stack in between swings, and then only rotate to SoV to maintain the 5 stack, and judge SoV on bosses, because at a 5 stack it would do more damage. Over time, numbers may show just maintaing SoC/judging to be more effective, but i've yet to see a serious study on this.

WTB invincible target to melee. I feel the longer the fight- the more effective this idea might present itself as, but on certain fights like akama, illidan, kalecgos, fights where you have to move around a lot, this would not be viable.

Anybody punched those numbers yet?

I wish there weren't faction based seals just so I could play around with seal of vengeance.

All paladin spells should use either melee hit. They should use the melee skill chance to miss/resist. All of our specs rely on melee to do damage (even holy besides holy shock), and needing two kinds of hit is bad design.

SoV will be pushed off the bosses debuff list if your 25 man raids contain 3 locks, 2 mages, 2 spriests and they are competent.

3 affliction locks maybe, but 3 destro locks is only 4 debuffs (and about 99% of intelligent locks are destro). I'm pretty sure you could even sacrifice JoL if you wanted to keep up SoV for some odd reason.

Brutalis we only roll 1 shadow priest and 2 destro locks, so it's not like the debuff slots are an issue. Just trying to contemplate how effective Judging SoV and keeping it at a five stack while running SoC as your primary, and just alternating to refresh and/or judge. Providing you could keep consistent on your crusader strikes/judgements, i'd predict a possible dps increase (although maybe insignificant, that's why im curious) providing you can afford it mana wise. Im an alchemist so im lucky enough to have super pots.

By the way, maxdps.com shows the ashtounge trinket as 30dps even, which isn't bad if your rocking like a bloodlust brooch or something. if your on a long boss fight I could see it having some value (not over crusade/shard/alch stone/DST/etc) but figure you may wanna throw it in rawr for those that might find it an upgrade.

Unless I just missed it there.

I do use seal twisting from SoJ to SoC on waves of trash leading up to Azgalor. The necromancers are the target. I find it works quite well for interrupts (but is usually bad for my health). I do not use it otherwise unless I am indeed in PvP.

I've never seen spell hit based seal proc off twisting from SoC, only SoC & SoJ works for Alliance in my experience.

I'd like to see a video or combat log of this, I couldn't get SoR to proc SoC. I can't remember if I tested SoR to SoJ it was awhile ago.

I've been an avid reader of these forums for some time but this is my first post.

Last night my guild killed Brutallus for the first time. During the wiping it took to get the fight stabilized I was able to practice a lot with seal twisting. Initially my damage fell for about 10 attempts, but finally I was managing to pull 1850+ dps on many of the longer attempts, when I would probably cap out nearer 1650-1700 using a conventional rotation.

With two bloodlusts and a bit of luck, on the actual kill I was able to do this, exceeding my own expectations as I have no SWP gear. It's 2115dps on WWS, and it just managed to sneak me into the top 15 on the scoreboard at 2063dps.

Buffs present were CoR, expose weakness, arms warrior, and I was using scrolls, haste pots, and elixir of demonslaying, with constant drums and GoA/WF. The rotation I used was pretty much what has been discussed previously, twisting every second or third swing. I've found it is best to err on the side of caution, so sometimes if I feel my timing is messed up or I'm suddenly distracted by something else in an encounter, I drop it until I feel comfortable with it again. Trying too hard to pull off twists (as well as just being plain bad at it) when I first tried it made me actually lose dps. On the actual kill I think I messed up one rotation towards the end when I was bloodlusted, with a single judgement of command actually showing up on the stats!

People who mentioned weapon speed are completely right I think. Currently I'm at 3.68 (no haste apart from my Torch) and this means planning a rotation is usually pretty comfortable. One of the hardest things to get used to is the delay on seal of blood, and waiting long enough to judge/re-seal with command without losing the seal of blood proc from your previous swing. When you factor in lag, I imagine the window will become pretty narrow when your speed increases.

I've also got an observation about DST, seal twisting, and Quartz, which may or may not be correct. If it can proc off a seal of blood attack after your swing timer has reset, does it not mean that the swing timer is now inaccurate and your attack will actually land earlier than indicated? That could be a problem unless you're extremely aware and are clear of the GCD. I don't have DST so it's pure speculation from me.

Finally, I'd just like to say thanks to all the people who have made this thread so informative and worthwhile. The tools have been invaluable. I'm sorry to see you're quitting raiding Zurm, your Teron video was one of the things that gave me the appetite to really give Ret a go and be confident about it.

It's for the best really...I just couldn't make a PST raid schedule living in an EST area and working full time with normal hours. I wouldn't want to raid with any other guild, so it seemed best to quit raiding. I will still read these boards (seems like there might be an AoC theorycraft area soon!) between leveling in AoC and while at work.

I fully plan to continue updating and expanding Rawr.ret unless a currently active player would really like to take the reins. Which actually reminds me... keep up the PMs with bugs/suggestions, I appreciate them and use them!

SoR won't proc SoC but both of them will proc off the white hit.

So it will be white hit, SoR proc, SoB proc. Only 3 hits instead of 4 with SoC.