You can have a judge/reseal macro in one button press, but you have to be careful not to mash it otherwise you will wind up judging without resealing or resealing without judging thanks to the GCD.

#showtooltip Seal of Blood
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of Blood

I really hate to 'beat a dead horse', but could you double-check that for me? I just got back to tinkering around with Ret.RAWR again at the enviable prospect of potentially being able to raid as Retribution and I'd really rather save myself the 5 Nether Vortices it would take to make a Stormherald if it's not actually going to be an upgrade.

"Napkin Math" suggests the proc on Lionheart Executioner would yield an average of 50 strength:

100 Strength @ 3 PPM, 10 second procs. 30 seconds up-time every min, 50% uptime, average Strength from Proc = 50.

Yet this is not handled like other Proc Effects where the average is simply tallied into the character sheet. I equip the Lionheart Executioner and my strength/AP only increases by the base amount on the weapon; I equip Libram of Divine Judgement and I gain 89 AP, the average AP gain from the proc effect.


If I go in manually and edit the item to have 102 Strength (52 base item + 50 Average Proc value) it shows up as beating Stormherald by around 7 DPS.



Certainly this is true an average half of the time, but half of the time LHE's range will be 421-605, which clearly out matches Stormherald's range, and by around twice the amount Stormherald outmatches the unprocced Lionheart Executioner.





Again, very sorry for 'beating a dead horse', and I truly appreciate your time and patience with me. I promise, I'm not unable to be convinced, I just want to fully understand.



EDIT: Fixed a silly error. 0=-)

The averaged proc amount (50 strength) with Divine Strength and Kings gives you 110 attack power. 110 attack power on a 3.6 weapon increases damage by ~28. Your average damage range on LHE is therefore 393-577, with a topend still lower than Stormherald's. Combine this with the AP normalization for non-normalized attacks (Seal of Command) and SH will still come out the winner.

Actually, judgement isn't on the GCD, so you cannot reseal and not be able to judge because of that. If that were the case, the macro wouldn't work, as judging would trigger a GCD not allowing you to reseal. It's the judgement's CD that may screw you over, but if you reseal without judging, you just lose mana, whereas the other way around can cost you some damage.

I didn't average the strength proc because I stated that half the time the full 100 strength will be in effect, without kings, that is 220 AP, or 56.57 (I truncated) Damage Per Swing on a 3.6 speed weapon, bringing the Lionheart's damage range to my stated range half the time.

Also, while yes, your stated top end is still 2 lower than the Stormherald the LOW end is 7 *higher* than the stormherald's, resulting in a higher mean swing damage.


I did not consider the AP contribution difference on the SoComm procs while not under the effects of the Lionheart's Strength proc.

Petersen,

I would suggest to you that you pick up the badge ax. Your armory link does not work, so I cannot see your level of progression, but with hyjal, bt, and za gear while using SoCom, the badge ax still comes out 29ish dps higher then stormherld and 37 higher then lionheart (in rawr using my gear). It will save you money, and you will not have to use your nethers, plus you are buying a tier 6 quality weapon with with badges!

Yeah... That would be the obvious choice, if I were a Blood Elf. But as a Human, attributing the weapon 50 strength as a constant (which is the only way I know how to emulate the Proc effect, since I can't seem to see any other modeling of the effect) it actually beats out the Axe by around 4.5 DPS (according to RAWR, which, I know, is not the end-all, but I don't have much other tangible way to compare gear).

Be back after lunch.


I know that. I don't know how else to account for it, though. But remember, SoV is 95% reliable. /giggles (that's a joke)

Losing the human expertise racial is a fairly massive blow to sustained DPS. The badge axe is pretty terrible for human pallys for that reason unless you're already capped without the racial (in which case you want felspine since it is miles ahead of the badge axe).

You're comparing the average damage range on SH to an inflated value for LHE. That is very bad form my friend, misleading information helps no one. If you're going to compare the average of one you have to compare it with the average of the second one.

Before I go into a very lengthy set of calculations would you mind answering one question? Do you understand AP normalization for normalized versus non-normalized attacks? If so it will save me a good deal of typing that I would like to avoid.

I'm not sure I agree that the information was necessarily misleading. not more misleading than your post. If you really want to get down to the nity gritty you have to say the average Swing Damage for the Stormherald is 482.5, the average damage of the Lionheart is 457, and is 513 under the proc. theoretically half the Lionheart's swings will be with a mean swing damage of the first and half will be of the last, so the overall mean swing will be 485, still higher than the Stormherald This also discounts the 2 Strength and 10 Agility advantage of the Lionheart's base stats, as well as Kings and other %-based AP/Strength buffs, which would enchance the advantage of the Lionheart's Proc.

As noted before, there is no internal cooldown on this weapon, so if luck likes you, you could see much more than 50% up time, and if not, could theoretically see 0 uptime, but over an infinite timeline you should theoretically see half your swings (or at the least half your swing time) falling under the effects of the proc.


Yes, I do. All instant attacks with two-handed weapons gain a benefit from AP as if they were using a 3.3 speed weapon, regardless of the actual swing speed. They do [WR+((AP/14) * 3.3)] Where WR is the damage range listed on the weapon. there are sometimes additional modifiers, such as crusader's strike would multiply the whole value by 1.1 and that would be the damage you deal before armor. Mortal Strike simply adds a certain amount of flat damage to the result, again, giving you pre-armor damage.

All non-instant attacks, Procs like SoComm, or On-Next-Swing attacks like Cleave and Heroic strike are NOT normalized, and as such use the weapon damage range in your character sheet modified by whatever the attack does (multiplied by .7 for SoComm, static modifier for Heroic Strike and Cleave).

This is my understanding, is there an error in it?

I use a few of macros (Judge/SoB, SotC application, Drums, Wings/haste etc) but I generally stopping using the one-button cast-seqence ones. I do most of my cooldown juggling by hand due to consecration/Exorcism and CS/Judge clipping.

Hm, out of curiosity, what is the downside/con of using

/castsequence reset=10 Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command, Crusader Strike

with consecration during the Judgement and CS on CD?

Entirely correct, and it saves me a ton of time, thanks.

Looking at the average damage ranges we can see that the white and CS attacks will be roughly even (LHE will most likely be slightly higher here). However, thanks to the static PPM and non-normalized nature of Seal of Command Stormherald will pull much further ahead. With either weapon you will have 7 procs of Seal of Command per minute. Seal of Command is non-normalized, meaning it gains AP based on your base weapon speed, meaning SoC procs while using Stormherald will be much larger than those with LHE.

Take for example 2000 Attack Power.

Your SoC damage with LHE (before percentage modifiers and crits) will look like this:

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.6 ) + 485 ) * .7 )
699.5

/

With Stormherald you'll be looking at:

( ( ( Attack Power / 14 ) * Speed ) + Weapon Damage ) * .7 )
( ( ( 2000 / 14 ) * 3.8 ) + 482.5 ) * .7 )
717.75

With percentage modifiers, crits, etc. the difference becomes even larger (a bigger number multiplied by a percentage will give a proportionally larger number than a smaller number multiplied by the same percentage). That is why SH will still win in most cases.

So that's 18.25 damage per proc * 7 procs per minute = 127.75 Damage per minute.

On the other hand, you're getting 485 (average strength Proc Inclusive weapon damage of the LHE) * 60/3.6 (Swings per minute, not rounded or truncated) *.63 (armor reduction for 6200 armor raid bosses) = 5092.5 DPM with the LHE, or (same calculation, different numbers) 4799.605... DPM with the LHE. This is POST ARMOR DPM (I'm using the minute scale just to have bigger numbers, for a more easily seen quantitative difference) of the LHE is .


So the bones are this:

292.894... more unbuffed white DPM (which is enhanced by armor reduction on bosses) with the LHE
(268.858...) on 7700 armor bosses
vs
127.75 more unbuffed SoComm DMP (enhanced by Misery and JotC).


Also, not truncating Swings Per Minute (60/swingspeed in the above calculations) works in favor of the Stormherald, as his decimal for SWP is .78947.... and the LHE's remainder is .66666...



NOTE: I would like to say you *almost* convinced me with this post, I was writing a concession when I thought to investigate how much the .2 second faster swing speed coupled with the higher average damage affected white damage output.

It's 18.25 DPS more before the following modifiers:

Sanctity Aura (10%)
Improved Sanctity Aura (2%)
Crusade (3%)
Misery (5%)
Vengeance (15%)
Judgement of the Crusader (44 non-modified damage)
Critical Strikes (200% * crit chance)

The gap will continue to get larger and larger. I really don't feel like running all the numbers right now but Rawr can do it for you, so what you're seeing in there is the god-honest truth.

18.25 DPS? O.o If LHE is doing 699.5 SoComm damage 7 times a minute, and Stormherald is doing 717.75 SoComm 7 times a minute, that's 4896.5 DPM or 81.6083 DPS vs 5024.25 DPM or 83.7375 DPS How does this come out to a 18.25 DPS differential Pre-Buffs.

Also, your list contains several items which would likewise affect any white damage advantage LHE might have. -and I forgot to account for 2K AP, so I guess I'll rework all that. Edit forthcoming.





So, at flat 2K AP from other gear, we have LHE with a theoretical 2000+102*2.2=2224.4 AP, and Stormherald with 2000+42*2.2=2092.4


2224.4 AP
*
3.6 speed
---------
571.9885 more DPSw (Damage Per Swing)

365 - 549 DPSw Range
+
572 (rounding for convenience)
---------
937-1121 DPSw Range

1029 Mean DPSw
*
(60/3.6) SPM (Swings Per Minute)
---------
17150 DPM (285.833 DPS)
*
.63 and 57.83
---------
180.07479 DPS Post Armor (6200)
165.2972239 DPS Post Armor (7700)





2092.4 AP
*
3.8 speed
---------
567.9371 more DPSw

386 - 579 DPSw Range
+
568 (rounding for convenience)
---------
945-1147 DPSw Range

1046 Mean DPSw
*
(60/3.8) SPM
---------
16515.789 DPM (275.263 DPS)
*
.63 and .5783
---------
173.41569 DPS Post Armor (6200)
159.1845929 DPS Post Armor (7700)






180.07479 DPS Post Armor (6200)
165.2972239 DPS Post Armor (7700)

VS

173.41569 DPS Post Armor (6200)
159.1845929 DPS Post Armor (7700)

=
6.6591 DPS Post Armor (6200)
6.112631 DPS Post Armor (7700)



Conclusion I have reached thus far: For some reason the LHE benefits more from counting the mean swing while under the proc and not under the proc separate and averaging the mean swings of each of these two states, as opposed to considering the proc's average effect a constant. In this most recent calculation, this, I believe, is the cause of the disparity between my previous calculations and my current ones. It is the only thing I did differently.

The LHE loses approximately 2.1 SoComm DPS for 6.1-6.6 white DPS W.R.T. the Stormherald at 2000 AP. At 2000 AP, LHE is the winner by 4-4.5 DPS, unbuffed. Most of the things that can be done to buff that 2.1 DPS also buff the 6.1-6.6 DPS. The question as far as buffs go is this: how does this disparity between the two weapons change as AP increases (or decreases), and can Misery, Sanctity (not improved, it applies to both) Aura, and JotC overcome Sunders, CoE, and Fairy Fire? Additionally, we're only looking at SoComm versus White damage, what about CS damage? I would think with the (average) 132 AP advantage the LHE enjoys, CS would be firmly on the side of the LHE.



EDIT: So apparently the equal sign does some funky things. I'm sorry this post takes up so much room, vertical math has always been easier for me to follow, so that's how I work when doing simple math.

It just occurred to me that we're doing this wrong.

The proc from LHE doesn't get added to weapon damage without first being modified by the AP multiplier. Therefore you can't use the average damage at all but will have to run double calculations, one at x AP and one at x + proc AP and average them together.

This alone is the deathblow to LHE. It's weapon damage is always going to be far below Stormherald's for non-normalized weapon attacks.

And as I keep repeating, I'm fucking tired and I don't feel like arguing about this with someone who can take it and plug it into Rawr or the spreadsheet and get his answer. Forgive me if I make mistakes.

I never did find a definate answer to this question. For the optimal melee group combo, mangle debuff, +healing from crits, and 5% crit increase. Did anyone run the numbers? If I missed the post please, could someone point me too it.

I also wanted to mention, typically in a complete night in BT our two rogues see 45-49% of their effective healing coming from ILoftP. It's much easier to DPS when you are alive

I think you guys could simplify that math quite a bit.


[Lionheart Executioner]:
457 avg. damage
3.6 AS
+10 Str
+2 Agi (ignoring this for the math)
+50 Str proc (on average, using Peterson's assumption)


[Stormherald]:
482.5 avg. damage
3.8 AS

The difference between the two weapons is 60 Str (120 AP, 145.2 w/ DS + Kings) vs. +0.2 AS and 25.5 weapon damage. The main difference between the two is in un-normalized SoC procs. Borrowing from Daz's equations, but using DPS:

LHE SoC DPS
( ( AP + 120 ) / 14 * 3.6 ) * .7 * 7 / 60
AP * 3.6 * .00583 + 2.52 DPS

SH SoC DPS
( AP / 14 * 3.8 +25.5 ) * .7 * 7 /60
AP * 3.8 * .00583 + 2.08 DPS


DPS difference
LHE SoC DPS - SH SoC DPS
AP * ( -0.2 ) * .00583 + 0.44 DPS
AP * ( -.001166 ) + 0.44 DPS


That tells you that LHE has more base DPS but that SH scales faster. The point where both weapons have the same SoC DPS is where AP = 377. At 2k AP, SH does 1.89 more DPS than the LHE. At 4K AP, the difference increases to 4.22 DPS.


For other abilities:
Autoattack: 120 / 14 = 8.57 DPS (LHE's bonus AP)
CS: ( 120 / 14 * 3.3 - 25.5 ) * 1.1 / 6 = 0.51 DPS ( LHE's bonus AP vs. SH's higher base damage )


At 4K AP, ignoring raid buffs, DS, BoK, and various other things, total DPS is 7.5~ in favor of LHE. This changes if we model the +Str proc differently. Reduce the uptime of the proc by half, and I think the SH pulls back ahead. So the real question is .. how much uptime do we really get on that proc?


EDIT: I hate how these forums mangle equations.

Hey guys what's up.

I been readina round for a bit and haven't been able to find my answer.

So i was talkin to a ret pally on my server that usually pushes out about 1k dps on average and I asked him what he thinks about haste. He said that it's really useless if you have a shaman in your group using a windfury totem. Now currently, Im in the middle of putting together a haste set, but after finding out this news, I was wondering if it would be more advantageous for me to put together an ArPen set.

What do you guys think? I s he right or no?

Thanks in advance for any help

For Blood Elves haste is an amazing stat. It sounds to me like this paladin believes that there is a CD on WF totem; this is incorrect the 3 second cooldown only applies to the shaman self buff.

I'm sure it will still lag behind, but does the recent alpha update so that hit and crit rating affects melee and spell mechanics mean that Seal of Vengeance might become usable?

For tanking, sure. (But it's had its uses there for a while, anyways) For DPS, SoV still does not scale off the stats on our DPS gear.


It does have nice base damage relative to other seals... but at this point, even if it proc'd every hit, crit'd every hit... It still wouldn't do that well, since it'd be doing base damage.


Though I'd like to point out that the Rank3 SoV on Alpha has greatly increased base damage. 1666 JoV at 5 stack, whereas JoR has 300~, and stunned JoC has around 600. It would probably be the DPS seal for under-geared Ret paladins. (Powerful judgement, chance to crit per proc, and I expect the scaling problem to be fixed in WotLK)