Is it correct to say that Command can proc Windfury if Windfury has not already proc'd on the swing, and Windfury can proc Command if Command has not already proc'd on the swing? I'm reasonably sure if we could get double procs, we would have seen screenshot evidence by now.

I am assuming Blood procs off of every WF and does not proc anything.

windfury has a small ICD to prevent such happenings (1-1.5s would be reasonable to assume) so that you can't get double procs with one swing, but you can still get back to back procs. It really seems like command also shares this small ICD as i've never seen a double command proc triggered from wf; i do see ( white hit > windfury > white hit > command ) quite often.

Blood procs on every white hit, and is incapable of triggering wf, jow, jol, or the DMC:C - it's not confirmed whether or not the BNS trinket will proc off blood yet.

Windfury WEAPON has a 3 second internal cooldown. Windfury TOTEM has no cooldown.

Shaman: Windfury

I am fairly certain WF totem has a cooldown, but it is like 1 second or so to prevent WoW 1.0's WF Burst.

Just like was said before, Command can proc Windfury (easily seen by looking at an Alliance Pally vs. a SoB using Pally), but no one has ever seen double WF totem attacks.

If they were chain proc'ing we'd also see double SoC procs. We see neither, so the model should be to give WF/SoC a chance to proc off the other if they haven't already proc'd on the swing.

Actually, I've seen a few of those, and someone posted a screenshot in this thread of double WF procs.
("You gain Windfury attack" with the same timestamp; always accompanied by a SoC proc, from what I've seen)



Someone hand-waved it as WF proc'ing itself or lag or some sort of bug, but the point is that we do see double WF procs from time to time. If it's because white + SoC have a separate chance to proc WF, then we have a 0.8% chance to see this on a given swing - so it'd be infrequent and easy to miss if you're not paying attention.

That doesn't make any sense, i specifically remember blizz nerfing shamans hard early prebc because of instant oneshot WF chain procs. It sounds idiotic, but perhaps a different rule applies to 2h'rs? The potential for a 2h weapon causing wf to proc itself would be devastating in pvp, and we all know that is what they balance the game around...

What we really need is someone with a lot of time to head out to blasted lands with a shaman and a 3.5 speed 2h, and record everything.

They nerfed *shamans* by putting the 3sec cooldown on the WF weapon buff, not the totem. The chance for chain procs is already minimal, due to WF Totem only providing one extra attack instead of two.

I stand by what I said.

It's no surprise that if they're toe to toe in a model that slightly undervalues Executioner given high ArmPen gear, Executioner will have a very slight edge in the correct model.

Now throw in a CoR/FF uptime of 90% and look how those numbers change.

Anyway, I enjoy theorycrafting, but one of the things that always strikes me as a complete waste of time is griping about <5DPS here and there. Saying it's "slim or almost negligible" is enough.





About WF/SoC proccing off eachother, there have been about two dozen pages a few pages back where we tried to establish just that.

It's not a clear cut conclusion, but what we did know is that there is some sort of relationship between WF procs increasing the amount of SoC procs and reverse.

Allowing them to recursively proc off eachother, at least once, yielded numbers that are much closer to what we get in practice, giving a somewhat better model.

Retribution itemization will be moved even closer to Warrior and Death Knight itemization

from WWI, just a further note on the direction of Ret.

Another note was short term blessings do not overight long-term, so perhaps a Ret can use BoSac to do a little healing while meleeing and there is hand of purity, a PoM-like single target spell.

I really hope theres more than that. Arms + fury warriors will be using 2h weapons and plate, and so will deaht knights. So there is the itemisation "fix". However, we already use this sort of gear. They need to make changes so that our abilities and talents can make good use of the gear and scale well with it. And keeping SoB and SoV faction specific only wont help.

I'm still worried about ret viability in WotLK, tbh. Here i am, hoping Blizard will actually do something instead of just fixing itemisation. I know the ideas for ret haven't been released yet, but so far, from what ive seen about other classes, im worried. Making totems affect the whole raid wont reduce the number of shammies in a raid either. Which melee class/spec would be steping out for a couple of deathknights?

Heh. I just still have a problem with Kalgan toting the "putting ret pallys with DPS warriors" as some kind of buff. Does he not understand that we already wear full DPS warrior gear? Nothing at all is changing, it is not any sort of buff whatsoever to go from wearing DPS warrior gear to "DPS warrior and death knight" gear.

It could just be that, as of right now, there is nothing regarding Paladins in the Alpha, so he has no idea what is going on. But who knows...

My last post got me thinking about what ret needs to really do well in WotLK. A new talent called Retribution Presence:

-----------------------

Retribution Presence
All spells are based on melee stats (ie, crit does 2x dmg/healing and resists are based on melee hit and expertise)

Improved Retribution Presence 1/2 (requires Retribution Presence)
After a sucessfull attack, for the next 10 secs, the paladin gains 20% of his attack power as spell dmg/healing and 10% in mp5.

Improved Retribution Presence 2/2
After a sucessfull attack, for the next 10 secs, the paladin gains 40% of his attack power as spell dmg/healing and 20% in mp5.

-----------------------

The way i see it, this would fix us for both pve and pvp, giving us good regen, and making our abilities scale with gear (including some healing for pvp)

Melee and spell crit and hit rating will be merged that solves some problems.
20% mp5 of ap is kinda wet dream. Ap with raid buff sit somewhere 3000-4000 so 600-800mp5 full time is more than spirit stackking priest oo5sr.

Paladins need mental quickness like talent just what shamans get and some talent for mana regen or/and proccable free spells. But asking free mana bar and 1200-1600spell damage for free is plain stypidity.

The exact % can go up or down. We dont know what the gear is going to be like. Obviously, it has to be balanced. It's the concept behind the idea that matters. It's up to Blizzard to make it balanced.

I don't know if I'm the only one who thinks this but can we please not have the "here's some random ability I dreamed up" discussions in this thread and instead stick to the theory-crafting of what we have now and anything that we are definitely getting in woltk, NOT what you wish we had.

It's good to see someone pickup the maintenance of the rwar model for retribution. Can't wait to see the fixes to the executioner and soc models. If you need a hand let me know I work as a c# developer currently I was going to take a serious look at the code during my next holidays.

Re: WWI... disappointing yet again minimal paladin information probably indicating basically they haven't spent any time yet on paladins, once again this leads me to be worried that it's going to be a quick hash job done (with time running out) like wow release or TBC all over again.

Any of you guys who knows of me will know that "have faith in blizzard" is definitely NOT in my repertoire... but in this regard in terms of wolk info and whatnot, don't look into specifics. I guarantee that 90% of the specific talents and whatnot will not make it into live as they exist now, so look at more of the generics in what they're doing.

They're blending melee and spell hit (which is one of the dumbest downfalls to ret paladins... they're a melee spec that has to get spell hit to cap for some abilities but not others?), and with the advent of haste ret paladins finally understood where their itemization truly is.

So don't have faith that they'll fix everything, but see that the overall direction is that they're really making ret paladin itemization truly unique and very good. Now if they can just FIX SoC's goofy proc system...

Anything allowing us to stand on our own feet (without raid support) mana regen wise would be great.

That and more personal dps that again is not completely reliant on raid synergy.

Looking at enhance shamans just makes me sad.

With raid wide totems, like raid wide windfury and the new raid wide SoE+GoA-in-one totem, our "3% crit to ALL THE RAID" will become a joke in comparison.



I guess under optimal conditions I think we need: Less reliance/dependency on almost perfect raid buffs/conditions to perform well (DPS/mana regen) and on the other hand more benefit given to the raid by having us around.

This is quite important - with enh. shaman buffs going raid-wide, power of our own buffs relatively drops - unless of course auras become raid-wide as well. Which wouldn't be all that bad solution to be honest. Making Sanctity Aura raid-wide and adjusting some of our DPS dependancies would make a lot to help retribution paladins keep up with other classes in WotLK.

Of course, in such scenario Sanctity Aura (or just its improved part?) should be deeper in ret tree to avoid wacky holy/ret hybrids capable of buffing raid DPS output by 2%.

A quick question, was there any final conclusion for seal twisting and if it would be an actual dps increase or not? I used the search tool and I may have glanced by the answer on accident, but other than that i did not find a conclusion. If there was a conclusion, what was the cycle?

From a pure Theorycraft perspective it is a DPS increase. From a practical application standpoint it is still up in the air.

Just a question. On my last Brutalus kill i had 29% glancing blows.
Wow Web Stats (1580 dps)
I even had some dodges but due to our possitioning thats just a thing I have to ignore for now. The problem here is that on different kills my glancing blows goes up and down from arround 15% - 30%. Ofc my dps is alot higher if glancing are low but I find this so terrible random and its freaking me out here. As far I know I just have to live with this random dps right ? Have any people out there been having same problems aswell ?

To another part then I find myself going oom faster and faster now, having only 3 palas in the raid for Brut means no BoW and by that it feels like getting drained in no time. Due to this I just completly ignore trying to get the "Gruul" trinket since I am using the alch stone and potting like mad. Still im able to go oom for arround 5-10 secs before next pot with consecrate rank 4 and down ranking exorcism with a rank aswell. I am really curius how u ret people plays with out the alch-stone since i myself would have extremly problems with mana if I ever changed that out. If u could breake this in pieces to me that would just be great.