Nisall

Combined with a lack of buffs (mark, might/kings, totems, flasks/pots/food/weapon buffs etc) another huge factor in dpsing heroics is the lack of ArP debuffs (sunders, faerie fire, CoR).

 

Trakor

In regards to SoC, if I'm not mistaken, we were trying to find out why SoC were procing a bit more than usual. Some people said it was due to haste, others said it was due to WF. I havent really reached an agreement here though. I'm interested in more data if anybody else did some more research into it.

Anyways, I think the last guy taking care of ret Rawr sujested we (alliance) should use 1.13 instead, as SoC procs calculation in Rawr were not correct. Now, I dont know if in Rawr SoC is procing more or less than it should be, or if its procing with WF or haste.

 

• Zurm

I fixed the proc rate issue before I passed on the Rawr.Ret throne

With the help of Avitus we agreed upon the correct way to model it (given what we knew at the time, I'm not sure how much, if anything, has changed in the 2 months I've been gone).

 

Kallell

Hoping the experts here can solve a mystery for us. We are working through ZA, and our ret pally seems to have fairly low dps, and high miss rates. His armory profile shows full +melee hit, though, so I'm not sure what is happening.

Here is his armory profile:
Armory Lite for Zyrimir of Kalecgos

Here is our most recent (last night) ZA run:
Wow Web Stats


I understand that perhaps a ret pally isn't the best dps option in a 10 man raid, but we take what people we have (we are all friends mostly) and do the best we can. Is there anything the pros here can suggest he change, or any glaring issues I might have overlooked?

 

• Astrylian

Expand each row of his attacks in WWS; you're looking at the collapsed 'Miss' column, which includes dodges, parries, resists, etc. He's not actually 'Miss'ing any attacks.

Apart from getting better gear, which there is lots available, especially from badges, he really needs to pick up a 2nd dps trinket (he's got a tanking trinket on there). Shard of Contempt from H-Magister's would be excellent.

EDIT: Also, it's pretty much safe to never expect a Retadin to do good DPS without Windfury. They're so incredibly reliant on it, and balanced around it, that they're very unimpressive without it.

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• Theras

He's not actually missing; if you expand the line in WWS you'll see that those are dodges and parries. He's well over the hit cap.

Given Zyrimir's equipment and enchants, your group makeup, and the content you're facing, I'd expect a Blood Elf Retribution Paladin to be doing around 750 to 800 DPS on boss encounters. He seems to be doing that, so we can safely assume that his play is at the very least fine. He really just needs to get better gear; specifically a DPS trinket, though in general he just needs to gear up. He also needs to apply DPS enchants to his gear, since last I checked 10 stamina armor kits aren't so hot for melee damage.

Rawr's Retribution model will give you all the information you need from the gear angle, though.

 

SpartanKillian

Getting the above-mentioned Shard will reduce the number of dodges/parried attacks. I would also have him:
1. Enchant his helm.
2. Get dps enchants on his gloves and boots.
3. Replace his gloves--even Ragesteel would be an upgrade.
4. Shed some of his +hit gear for better pure dps stats. The cap is 95, so anything past that is dead weight.
5. Get a different libram--the one off of Heroic BF is a good/easy one for BE pallies.

Probably more significantly, I would make sure he isn't clobbering his swings. Does he use Quartz? Auto-attack is 39% of his total damage (which seems low).

 

Kallell

Yeah, i just took another look at his gear. It isn't quite as good as I thought. He still needs some work there definitely. Fortunately, he takes suggestion/correction the best of anyone I know, so it's just a matter of getting the groups and arenas together.

Thanks for the info on WWS, I notice how they grouped them now. He had no actual misses, just dodge and parry.

 

SinJin

His profile does show full hit cap rating but he is overcapped as he only requires 6% (if he has Precision topped out). That means he is free to reduce this amount and concentrate on the other stats that ret pallies thrive on such as str and crit %. In his particular case, he has 28.5% crit which I think is quite adequate to keep Vengeance fully stacked so then the issue lies in his AP. At 1414 AP, he is definitely in the low range for a raid like ZA.

I'm sure the community here can suggest several other tips but try Be Imba! - the online Character Auditor for World of Warcraft . This website will perform a PVE audit on a character and provide analysis as well as recommendations on where he can improve.

 

Zyrimir

My ears were burning :P

Kal has been helping me out quite a bit...and I do take suggestions from my guild leader seriously!

I switched builds about 3 months ago, so I'm still trying to gear up for DPS.

I have been holding off spending my badges...saving for Legplates of Unending Fury. I'm about 10 badges short right now.

I was hoping that kara runs would take care of gloves/boots. Trinket is a problem...considered getting the Bloodlust Brooch w/badges, but figured the legs were more important and as soon as I can get a group, plan on shooting for the hourglass. Libram is a very minor upgrade...the enchants are more of a problem though. Partially my fault, as I'm about 3k away from revered with CE and WAY away from revered with lower city for that head enchant. The other non-enchanted gear is also my fault...I'm of the school that it's better to enchant after you get decent gear...but if you can't get the gear...it becomes problematic.

I wasn't entirely convinced that my gear was up to ZA. I've been using maxdps...haven't tried rawr yet. Maybe I'll do some crosschecking and see if there's any very easily obtainable gear I've been overlooking.

And any other suggestions I'm always looking for!

 

Tyrannix

This isn't a scientific test or anything like that. just happened to see it on my first swing on a mob, and I knew there were more numbers than there should have been. I believe this screenshot shows WF proccing off of the WF. Someone showed it being possible in one of the rogue threads here, but I don't believe it's been proven/disproven for Ret Paladins/2H users. Am I correct, or am I misreading? My understanding is it says "Your Windfury granted extra attack" directly before the attack that caused it. Since it is after the Crusader Strike and directly before the melee attack from WF, I believe that's what procced it.



Opinions or analysis?

Edit: Don't know if it's not showing up for anyone else, so here's the link to the picture. WF procs WF

 

Feanor73

Do some arenas too.

Some parts are really well itemised for PVE too : gloves come to mind thanks to the 5% bonus to crusader strike.

 

• Zurm

If rogues proved it can happen to them, it can happen to everyone. An auto attack is the same regardless of class/weapon type.

 

Ayreon

Happened to me several times as well.

 

Hailley

Hello, I been doing Brutallus with my new guild (1st night for me) and I have some shakey performance. I would like to know why my dps spikes and how to help improve the overall dmg.

In my armory it shows me using t6 legs, but in raiding I use the scyrer retainer from badges (need the 30 hit).

WWS

Wow Web Stats our 8% wipe

Wow Web Stats our 1% wipe

Brut is normally on farm but this week was an off week raiding. Most people in the guild outgear me significantly (I'm a new recruit)

So I would like to see what is causing my dps to be "low" and at times decent.

 

Kadrok

You can't really compare your DPS from the high % wipes with your DPS on kills or near-kills, as Avenging Wrath, trinkets, and Heroism will likely be up for a longer percentage of these fights than if you had continued with the encounter.

Additionally, the 1% wipe lasted well after the enrage, and I assume that entailed quite a bit of running around and not DPSing effectively, which causes a significant drop in DPS. For example, on the 8% wipe you had 53 Crusader Strikes, yet on the 1% wipe attempt, which lasted 34 more seconds, you only had 1 additional CS, the same amount of white hits, and 2 fewer Exorcisms.

Peruse those WWS parses, and you'll see your crit and dodge / parry / glancing rates also play a large part in these fluctuations.

All in all, there are many reasons why your damage might spike from attempt to attempt, and in order to accurately compare your performance, you should really only use attempts on which you kill the boss, ideally before the enrage and the chaos that surely ensues.

As for increasing your overall DPS, your Crusader Strike usage is decent enough, but your Judgment, Exorcism, and Consecration usage is low. I'm not entirely sure how Alliance Paladins prioritize Judgment, but you definitely have room to add in significantly more Judgments and Exorcisms, in addition to keeping Consecration down more.

 

flyingtoastr

CS > Judgement > Exorcism > Consecration

The 200 AP proc puts it slightly ahead of the more damaging Exorcism. IIRC the ideal is 6.5 second CS, 9 second Judgement, 18 second Exorcism, 10 second Consecration, but I could be wrong.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Zupal

At the very least, your positioning is bad. You are in the front arc of Brut and are getting parries which is reducing your DPS. Wow Web Stats

Should have stocked up on fire-toasted buns if you are short on hit. It stacks with all buffs. Looks like demon-slaying faded and wasn't re-applied after 5 mins also. Consider farming up some demonic runes if you are short on mana.

How are you using your cooldowns?

Have inputted all your gear and available gear into Rawr as well as raid buffs/mob debuffs and modelled?

Seal of Light is sort of waste of a debuff slot IMO on Brut. I'd forego it if you are getting close to debuff limit.

 

Mica

Great thread guys, this has really helped me alot.

But i do have one question.

I was the primary holy Pally for my guild (currently in sunwell) and as such picked up some decent Ret gear going along the way.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I have now dropped back to team 2 as Ret to help them out.

Firstly ive noticed that my DPS is substantially lower than what Imba says it should be. At no fight have i broken 650 (admittenly without WF or a shammy).

Wow Web Stats

My main question is the rotation.

Judge Crusader, SOB, CS, Judge SOB, SOB, CS, Rinse Repeat. And Avenging Wrath + Trinket as early as i can to get as many as i can.

I have a WWS from our much around in SSC last night but its not a very accurate one, I died on the lurker Kill, Went oom too much on Hydross, and we all know how Melee friendly Alar is.

Is it purley the lack of WF thats holding me back? Or is my Rotation clearly off? Or old ret pally could be top 5 with WF and a few pots, his gear was better, but not by miles (excuse my 2 blues). So i just wonder what im doing wrong.

Any help would be appreciated

 

Shikari

Mica,
What's that [Polished Chrysoprase] doing in your helmet? There's also no enchant on the helmet. You should consider farming reputation for Cenarion Expedition. There's no Cloak enchant (Go for +12 Agility), +100 Health on Chest (Go for +6 Stats), no Leg-Enchant (Go at least for [Cobrahide Leg Armor]), enchant your Boots with +12 Agi, put higher quality Gems in your Boots (Since they're the best pre-Sunwell, I think), enchant Mongoose on your weapon.

As for the playstyle, I will take your Hydross down as a sampleset. I'm not good at reading WWS Logs, but from what I see, you had 53 + 22 = 75 white Hits and a total of 104/2 = 52 Seal of Blood Hits. This means you had 23 white Hits without Seal of Blood active, this might be the primary mistake.
Your buffs gained show you gained four times Seal of the Crusader and three times Seal of Wisdom (Is this why you had 23 white Hits without Seal of Blood?). It looks like you had some trouble with Mana and had no other Paladin judge Wisdom for you. There was a total of 3 Paladins in the Raid. Tell one of your fellow Paladins to judge Wisdom for you. You keep it on the Boss refreshed with Crusader Strike.
The fight duration was 6'34", you used in total 32 Crusader Strikes. This means you used Crusader Strike every 12,3 seconds. Try to use Crusader Strike more often. The Hydross encounter should at least give you the opportunity to use it at least every 9 seconds (You even only had three times Water Tomb, so..).
If you're missing Mana, don't use Consecration. The priority to keep up is having Seal of Blood active all the time, then using Crusader Strike on cooldown, then using Judgement on Cooldown, and only if everything stated before is true, then you can use Consecration (if your Mana allows you to).

The very first thing "you" can do better is ask a fellow Paladin to judge Wisdom for you. The Mana gain from this is very important!

 

Mica

Thanks for the Reply

My helm is crap so i didnt really bother geming it properly or enchanting it, its just stuff i had laying around and hope to replace soon. Cape i have the mats for, just didnt do it before the raid. Again legs are very bad, will be replacing those asap. And yeah at the time i was hoping for a better Wep, but since ive dropped into team 2 i might as well enchant that properly.

The 23 white hits whould have been when i was oom id say, id put on JoW and hit Hydross' adds to get some mana back, i have talked to the palies about putting it up on the boss but i think i need to be alittle more firm.

I would say this is also why my average crusader strikes went down, just not enough mana. It may be that Mana issues are whats holding me back (seems likley from what you say).

Come sunday ill try and make sure it stays up and well see what happens

 

Luné

Hi, i picked many things on your WWS.

First, you play a retrib pal, if you want to play in Hl you have to perfectly know how to play your class and what to do in the fight.
I agree with Zupal, having parry in this fight is ... awesome.
I'm just gonna focus on the 1%'s fight.

For people in your guild who are saying your dps is low, show'em this Wow Web Stats you gave at least 2 or 3 mana potions to casters. Add the dps they obtain by using destruction potion instead of mana and add it to YOUR dps.

An other thing, I saw your buff and you are using an elixir which fade after 5 mins in a ... 6'28" fight, 88s without 265 AP.
After, I don't really like to use Exorcism and Consecration, I rather prefer keep my mana and then use Haste potion, but do as you want.
I just see 6 drums of battle on a 6'28" fight, a great lost of damage for you !

You only have 70 hit rating points ... 4.44% and you need 6%. See how many glancing you had on the fight !
So now you can do something to up your dps

 

• Zurm

Just got back from my Hiatus... any M'uru killers can fill me in on their DPS for the fight? I was doing about 1400 dps with no warrior (group was 2x rogue, feral, enh sham, me). Just curious to see how far off track I am given all the running around and target switches.

This is actually wrong for warlocks, the extra time spent life tapping instead of shadow bolt spamming actually makes mana potions better.

 

• frmorrison

Exactly, Desto potions are so bad compared to haste potions in general.

However, for certain times (during Bloodlust/Trinket pop), Desto potions are better than Mana potions for Warlocks.



To the guy that was posting about Be Imba, use Rawr to model dps, Be Imba is mostly for seeing if you have good enchants and seeing where you gear rates.

 

Saltycracker

Hey Zurm,

Here is a WWS parsing from some M'uru attempts if you wanna check it out. I think there are a few attempts where we got into phase 2. We never downed him and I doubt I will anytime soon as my guild exploded.

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Enjoy