This is my understanding as well. What is in contention is whether the PPM percentage chance is in fact changed by haste or whether it is still calculated by pre-haste base weapon speed.

It is post haste, as DonGuapo said. Apologies if there was any confusion over my post, I wasn't being as articulate as I should have been. Haste doesn't affect the PPM, SoC will always average out to 7 PPM. The percentage chance per swing to proc SoC however would be affected, again because you're swinging more often with haste, but still only proccing SoC on average 7 times/mintue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the stamina portion of vindication not work on npcs since they do not have a stamina stat?

Some of the adds in phase 1 M'uru (the Berserkers and Mages specifically) seem to be affected by it even though technically mobs do not have stats. I've always thought it was a little screwy but no one is complaining.

The anecdotal evidence from how many hundred pages back when Vindication was first changed to affect all stats was something along the lines of:

Testing it on Zul'Aman trash, I noticed that you could reduce a mob's max HP by 15% once Vindication procced, and the current HP would follow suit. However, the effectiveness of Vindication in this case depends on how fast a mob drops from 100% to 85% without Vindication anyway, since proccing the debuff if the mob was already at 84% does nothing.

That's just shoddy coding then. It's no wonder haste is largely a dud stat for Ally Paladins(in comparison to other available stats). If the PPM chance was calculated pre-haste then haste would effectively up your procs per minute. Bleh.

Haste is not a dud stat for Alliance paladins. 1% haste still increases your white damage by 1%, and white damage accounts for about half of your total damage. It just doesn't affect your seal damage, which is noticeable but not something to make the stat useless.

Hi, since the NDA has been removed on wotlk, some stuff bout pallies have come out. I dunno if its old info but its been posted on mmo-champion, does anyone have any opinions on the changes?

to me they removed sanctity aura, made some pvp skills % of base mana, and moved imp sanc aura to imp retribution aura. seems like pallies got a bit nerfed, my friend says that the new reallocation of hit/crit/haste will balance it out but i'm not so sure. any opinions?

Cath got a topic started over nyah about the wrath changes, but once we find out some of the new ret specific stuff we sure will be talking about them here (or, as we're nearing post cap somewhat soonish in a new topic). We most assuredly haven't been nerfed, there are quite a few very nice changes in there (Divine Strength in Prot for example so we don't "waste" a single point for precsion).

On a note for the changes though, Hammer of Wrath is being buffed but still isn't mentioned as instant, meaning it is.. (drumroll please) STILL USELESS!!!

Actually all in all I'm pleased with some of the stuff.

Losing 10% Holy damage is not that bad, since I am guessing Seal of Corruption will be melee stats based.


Also some PvP problems are somewhat addressed in that whatever Judgement you put up will still get 3% crit, and the soon to be changed BoF/BoSac will not use the blessing slot anymore, and with Hammer Wrath being melee based depending on scaling maybe useful.

Another great change is the Repentance lasts for 1 minute, so will help Ret a lot in groups.


Overall great changes, too bad we all have to wait 6 months or so to see them (unless you have a beta invite).


Edit: There is a Wrath thread now.

I'm a little more concerned with shaman's windfury totem changing into a flat 20% melee haste instead of a chance for 1 free attack...anyone have thoughts on this?

They go to all the trouble to separate the totem AFTER making such a big mechanic change, I find it an amusing waste of time. Why not just make a Super WF Totem that gives overall haste bonus ala mana tide.

With any luck, the 5 points we save from the Divine Strength move is going to be more useful than the usual left over points we have currently.

Now.. to Hand of Sacrifice the MT so I get healed more for more mana via SpiA... awesome =] (should blizzard ever fix our mana problems)

It appears as though seal of corruption is seal of vengeance and seal of blood is seal of the martyr. This is speculation though that I've been hearing around (I know this is not good for this thread, but it all makes sense especially because of windfury change).

As I've spoken to several dataminers now, I think it's safe to say that it's confirmed that ;

Seal of Corruption is Seal of Vengeance for the Horde,
Seal of the Martyr is Seal of Blood for the Alliance.

Now, about the new talent trees, while the new ret tree looks like an absolute beast (in power) I still wonder, how hard will the lack of precision hurt us now that it has been removed?

Seal of Corruption - Spell - World of Warcraft Seal of Corruption
Seal of the Martyr - Spell - World of Warcraft Seal of the Martyr

There are more Paladin spells like Shield of Righteousness( Shield of Righteousness - Spell - World of Warcraft ) available at wowhead as well.

It seems possible that Precision was made trainable. Also, yes Seal of the Martyr is SoB for Alliance.

66 Valid points in Ret or 0/5/66 seems to be our new spec. Very interesting.

I'm not entirely convinced of this. With the AP->SP change, it actually does scale with gear, and the new Sanctified Wrath talent means its going to have a 80% crit chance. I'm not thrilled about the changes, but there is a chance it will be on my bar again.

Assuming you have 3k attack power you're looking at 1k Spell Damage from SoL. HoW scales with ~40% of your spell damage, so we're looking at an additional 400 damage onto the baseline average of 782 (for rank IV, the level 68 rank), or an average non-crit of about 1200. Assuming again a nice 85% crit (critting at 2760 thanks to the new crit damage talent) you're looking at an average damage of 2526 damage.

So that would work out to roughly 421 DPS/CD before percentage modifiers. So yeah, it will be pretty damn awesome.

I take back everything I said, the 4-piece bonus isn't terrible. It still isn't the best though.

"i fail at timestamps"

all the changes to retri are insanely good. especially since SoB (Martyr) is still gonna be the dps seal

windfury change to haste = good for SoB

+ 5% str in divine strength (10% before now 15%)

sanctity aura removed. but added in retri aura. so if we get hit we output dmg aswell = more dps

avenging wrath cd up to 60 seconds.. which means its 2 minutes.. and thats awesome since it goes in line with trinkets.

Also alot more spelldmg for conce from the new talent sheath of light

the talent righteous vengeance + 15% crit dmg

the talent art of war also nice boost since you judge blood all the time which means more dmg from judgemend is more health loss is more mana!!

and then the talent swift retribution which is a passive +3% attack speed

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

this is the spec we will be using probably..

insane dps boost in my opinion

Look at timestamps please. That was last night before it was known that Precision was removed.

ah sorry

i never said that

Unfortunately, I didn't see anything that will guarantee some sort of mana pool maintenance. Judgements of the Wise could do the trick (if judging does enough damage), but it only returns mana to nearby party/raid members. It doesn't state that you have to be one of them, and with the greatly increased mana costs of everything, we will drink 3 times just to buff the raid

EDIT: Playlogic. Free up a point and don't bother with SoC. It should take a nerf since there is no more bonus to holy damage and everyone will have SoB (or its equivalent).